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It's just loss. (lemmynsfw.com)

submitted 2 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (7 children)

60 % of mammals are livestock, not 60% live in factory farms

99% of US farmed animals live in factory farms, according to this random website I just found. I don't claim to be an expert, though, and worldwide is probably lower than than 99%, but I would bet you that the vast majority of livestock is factory-farmed.

Agreed though that not all livestock are factory farmed. I should have clarified.

I'll point out though that even some non-factory-farmed livestock are likely suffering. Bentham's Bulldog talks about how hens undergo severe agony:

Egg-laying hens in conventional farms endure about 400 hours (!!!!!) of this kind of disabling agony. Remember, this is agony about as bad as the worst thing that’s ever happened to you, unless you’ve had an experience as bad as being severely tortured.

(emphasis mine.)

A seal in the 4% living in the wild may be eaten alive by a killer whale or torn to shreds by a great white shark.

That's bad, though probably not anywhere near as much agony as being boiled alive for several hours until one's death. Regardless of whether you feel morally obligated to reduce wild animal suffering, you should admit that (a) from a utilitarian perspective, it's much easier to reduce factory farm suffering, and (b) from a deontological perspective, factory farming is (collectively) our fault, whereas the food chain isn't.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago (6 children)

Some website I've never heard of before that you term as a "random website" says "We estimate..." a bunch of times without any attempt to describe the methodology used for their estimates.

So that's bullshit.

The problem with the vegan animal rights movement is you're always going for the moonshot of ending an entire industry instead of even trying to identify and shut down farms with horrible practices or outlaw those practices. To accomplish the goal of ending an industry, you're fudging numbers and coming out as being dishonest which means no one will trust you and you'll accomplish nothing. If animals are indeed being boiled alive (I don't believe you about this because you're obviously making up shit on other things) then it will continue to happen because you're trying to accuse an entire industry of doing things that only some in the industry might do.

If you cared about the boiling animals alive thing (if it actually happens) you'd be trying to get that particular farm shut down, get laws passed to prevent that from happening. But you're not doing that (you're not even identifying any particular farms) so that leads me to believe either it's not happening, or maybe you want it to continue to happen because it somehow helps your vain cause of ending all meat.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

You're right to question the boiling. I was thinking of death by suffocation in heated steam. Boiling is not the technically correct term.

Here are some more sources that nearly all livestock live in factory farms: [Our World in Data, PETA,]; there are a lot more I can find searching the web but they mostly seem to link back to the Sentience Institute's research. OWiD's is based on SI's research, and I suspect PETA's claim is based off SI's as well. More importantly, I haven't found any claim that the proportion is lower than 90%, or even anyone challenging SI's figures. Do you have reason to doubt this? And if so, can you find any source? It seems plausible to me just based on the fact that factory farming is vastly more efficient than other methods, and most people aren't picky about such things. Just as a prior, I would expect that the vast majority of livestock are found in the most efficient types of farms.

Without any attempt to describe the methodology used for their estimates.

I mean they literally have their calculations available right there as an easily-viewable google sheets link. And the data source is clearly stated: "these estimates use the 2022 Census of Agriculture and EPA definitions of CAFOs to estimate the number of US farmed land vertebrates who are in CAFOs ("factory farms")."

You’d be trying to get that particular farm shut down, get laws passed to prevent that from happening. But you’re not doing that

Who is not doing that? Me specifically or animal rights people in general? I don't see why shutting down a particular farm would be very helpful, the scale of the problem is incredibly massive; passing laws would be much more effective. I would like to see laws passed, though, to stop these kinds of abuses. What would make you think I am not interested in that?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

PETA has killed more animals than I have LOL.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

tbh their claim of 99% has no source. So it was really kind of pointless of me to include that link.

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