this post was submitted on 18 Jun 2023
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It probably goes against the philosophy or whatever of FOSS or Lemmy itself, but why not be a little evil so that you can actually sustain yourself? Donations can bring us far, but small non-intrusive ads can be a bliss in the skies for the people actually hosting the instance. Especially if there are millions of users uploading thousands of images and videos. This is extremely expensive.

Is running ads really that taboo?

EDIT: some people seem not to get the point of "millions of users", which presumably includes non-techies that do not use adblockers. I mean that without ads (or mining?), no instance would be able to scale to the point where it can compete with Reddit for example. If you were to want that.

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[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I wouldn't be surprised if someone will do an ad-supported service. Or just do a straight-up subscription service -- I mean, Usenet providers do that. Means that you don't risk having your instance just vanish, someone handles security updates and load issues and so forth. Different models could coexist at different levels of reliability and performance and whatnot.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

On the reliability issue, from my very quick skim, my kneejerk reaction is that I do think that the Fediverse might need some improvements in dealing with resillience due to instances going down permanently. As it is, that happens -- due to hardware failure or financial concerns or God knows what -- the accounts aren't available.

One possibility might be providing a pubkey method to prove that a user is legitimately a user on an instance that went down. Publish a pubkey prior to an instance failing, and then permit a "transition to a new account" mechanism where a user can prove to the system that they are an older user. Key management -- storing and retaining a private key -- might be a bit of a pain without a third-party app, as I don't know if there's a convenient way to do that in browsers today.

Another might be having some mechanism to deal with node failure. Freenet deals with having a fundamentally-unreliable distributed storage mechanism by having a level of forward error correction and then distributing some redundant data around the network so that it's possible to regenerate a certain amount of lost data when a node leaves the network from the data on remaining nodes.

As it stands, I don't think that lemmy/kbin have something like that. They must retain copies of some of the data -- hence the "The magazine from the federated server may be incomplete. Browse more on the original instance" message that kbin shows if I'm looking at a community on lemmy.world from kbin.social. But unless it's cryptographically-signed by lemmy.world, if lemmy.world vanishes forever, kbin.social cannot prove that its copy of data originating from lemmy.world is authentic, so it cannot be made re-available to other lemmy/kbin instances.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yes something like this should definitely be implemented. Mastodon has the feature of "moving your account" from one instance to another, but I haven't tested it yet. Don't know if it has anything like you mentioned like key management.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

That was one of the things that I very-briefly skimmed, and why I mentioned the pubkey thing, as it sounded to me like doing a migration on Mastodon involved having the source and destination instance both active. Like, you wouldn't use it in the aftermath of an instance being lost forever, which I'm pretty sure is gonna be a use case that is gonna come up before too long.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

As it is, that happens -- due to hardware failure or financial concerns or God knows what -- the accounts aren't available.

One possibility might be providing a pubkey method to prove that a user is legitimately a user on an instance that went down.

This is the one thing that bugs me the most with ActivityPub - identities are tied to instances. Hopefully folks are still working on nomadic identities.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

The point of the fediverse is that hosts can pick their own business model - free, freemium, ad-supported, subscription. Just like e-mail, you sign up with the provider who provides the type of service you think best meets your needs. If they piss you off, you move to a different provider.

If the fediverse demands hosting for millions of users, someone will make a server to host millions.

I personally think "big" instances should focus on user/identity management, while communities live in small groups on small instances. This lets the identity providers include/exclude with much better granularity (compared to the beehaw mess) making the communities much less susceptible to being collateral damage.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

I'd like this to be avoided as much as possible. But I am a bit weary about the fact that even small instances have to copy everything else on the Fediverse and thus will be very strained. Or do they copy the stuff only when their user wants to view it? Not sure how it works.

[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

AO3 is a huge website that makes money purely off of donations. They often get like quadruple the amount they ask for every time they ask for money. Wikipedia comes to mind as well, although I'm not sure if they only make money off of the donations. Instead of donating to a third party service, Lemmy should build in the ability to donate into the website.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Maybe something like DuckDuckGo's ads that respect DNT?

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I think it's reasonable for some instances, where there's good alignment. There was a thread I replied in a few days back around how/if TTRPG creators(who are mostly small enthusiasts themselves) could advertise in related magazines, and legitimizing that business wouldn't really pose a conflict for the hobby - that's how it was built in the first place! It's just a matter of finding a place for it and defining the technical solutions.

As a general "let in all the advertisers and promise riches for someone" measure, it does cause known problems. There is some freedom to figure out what works in a specific case here, it's not defined top-down since it isn't centralized.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Donation based funding has historically been used amongst the fediverse and is therefore the most likely path forward. I'm also partial to this model as it prevents predatory changes towards increasing ad revenue. We see many content creators and organizations (such as the lemmy devs themselves) utilize donations as a method towards preserving the FOSS spirit of the platform whilst supporting these projects part/full time or just server and maintenance costs.

I am of the opinion that in the long term, donations will also be the best way to preserve Lemmy's independence from profit based oversight by staying ad-free and the instances that step away from this and embrace ads most likely will be the ones that already have stepped away from the spirit of Lemmy by defederating. I have no interest in remaking reddit and many others feel the same so I am more than happy to donate and enjoy other FOSS projects.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I'd rather have a smaller/cheaper platform with no ads than a bloated mess like reddit with ads and data mining.

A small community is perfectly ok.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I'd be absoloutely fine with some unobtrusive side bar adds, its only when adds make it difficult to actually use the website that add block turns on.

[โ€“] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Ads is what's ruining everything that's good on the internet. If you have two similar platforms and one is run by ads and one by a subscribtion model the latter is going to give you way better experience.

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