this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2023
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No, there is a button to make the Echo stop listening.
If you want to prove me wrong, it should be incredibly easy to press the button and record the Echos network activity. If you're right you'd still see network traffic. But nobody has been able to show this so far. I wonder why?
Yeah I read the other comments after making mine. However everyone keeps calling it a "physical" button, and I don't think that's accurate. It won't be a physical switch that opens a circuit, it will be a button that operates a transistor that opens the circuit.
Still, I see no good reason to trust the device - especially in a medical setting.
There's not much difference between a direct switch and a transistor, both will cut the signal and neither is over rideable by software
This is disingenuous at best and incorrect at worst. The mute button on the Echo is just that, a button; it is not a switch. It is software-controlled and pushing it just sends a signal to the microcontroller to take some action. For instance, one action is to turn on the red indicator light; that's definitely not physically connected to the mute button.
Maybe another response of pushing the button is to disable the transistor used for the microphone, but it's more likely that it just sets a software flag for the algorithm to stop its processing of the microphone input signal. Regardless of which method it uses, the microcontroller could undoubtedly just decide to revert that and listen in, either disabling or not disabling the red light at the same time.
But I personally don't think it listens in when muted. I don't think it spies on us to target ads based on what we say around it. I'm not worried that the mic mute function doesn't work as intended.
But I fully understand that it is fully capable of it, technically speaking.
I don't know the internal workings of the echo, I was responding to a comment that said it "operates a transistor". Which is way different than it being an input to a microcontroller.
If the button is just connected to a transistor, it's not software controllable, since transistors are electronical devices that don't interpret any software. A microcontroller does execute software. There's a big difference.
A transistor is controlled by software so yes, it's absolutely over rideable.
Transistors are simple electronical devices. They don't run software. You can control their inputs with another device (such a microcontroller) that does run software. You can also control their inputs with a button. You can't control their output with software.
I don't know how an Amazon echo is wired up, but if you just have a button connected to the gate of the transistor, it works basically the same as a mechanical switch.
No, as I just said in the comment you replied to, it's backwards. Software controls transistors.
The important difference is that a mechanical switch cannot be maliciously switched on by software. It has to be done physically and intentionally.
There is absolutely no requirement that a transistor be controlled by software. They can be controlled by physical switches.
Transistors have no registers. They have no arithmetic logical units. They have nothing. They are so simple they can be made up of less than 100 atoms. Transistors have to be connected electrically to other device. Any reverse engineer can trace what it is connected to and it's behaviour cannot be programmed. If you know that it's a transistor and you know the inputs, you can know the output. The same cannot be said for a device which runs software, you'd have to additionally know what that software does, which is incredibly more complicated.
Software is ran by microcontrollers. Transistors can be connected to microcontrollers. But they can also be connected to buttons. If there is no microcontroller, there is no software.
I don't understand what any of that has to do with this conversation.
Well, you claim that transistors can be controlled by software, and I claim that it is no more capable to run software than a mechanical switch.
It's about as likely that the transistor is attached to a pin that sends an interrupt to the processor and it then applies a soft mute as it is the transistor is attached to a flip flop or register that toggles the mic getting power physically.
My guess would be it's controlled by software rather than directly by the hardware because then they can do whatever they want with the button via firmware or software updates. This includes nefarious stuff like a fake mute mode, or more innocent stuff like special behaviour on a long press vs short press.
You could just connect the switch to an input pin on the processor. I don't see how a transistor makes this scenario more likely.
I don't know why you keep saying this so let me try for the third time:
A transistor does not run software, software runs transistors.
Please tell me. How exactly does software "run" a transistor?
The software is what decides when to send the signal to switch them on and off.
Now tell me, how does the software communicate with the transistor? Wifi? Bluetooth?
There is no "communication". Transistors don't have that capacity, they're just switches.
Heh
If the Echo stored the audio and then sent it sometime after you unmute, it would still pass your test.
Which you could easily see by looking at the amount of traffic sent after unmuting, unless you believe that Amazon secretly found an infinite compression algorithm they use only in muted Echo devices.
Unless some or all of it was sent along during the next time you actually do a voice command.
Tbf to foobar, that should still give a falsifiable and testable data-difference if you are willing to alter your behaviour around experimentation for an extended period of time
Though, there are always more ways to hide traffic
Again: Which you could easily see by looking at the amount of traffic sent after unmuting, unless you believe that Amazon secretly found an infinite compression algorithm they use only in muted Echo devices.
You understand that sending more information means more traffic? Unless - as I stated - they found a perfect compression algorithm, you'd be able to tell.
I’m a little confused as to why you are being so condescending. Every time you say “this is so simple if you do X”. And then I say “what about Y?” And then you’re like “that’s obvious too, just do Z” and kind of insulting me, even though you did not account for it in your prior comment. And it becomes less trivial with each additional test.
Your first method involves simply checking if there is any traffic after muting. Your revised method involves additionally checking if there is any traffic for some period of time after muting (how long?). And now your third method involves doing the first two things as well as gathering data on the average amount of traffic in your requests generally and deciding whether subsequent traffic during requests after muting for an unspecified amount of time is significantly large enough to conclude it is sending information acquired during muting.
But if they send it a little bit at a time, or they just leak a small portion of it occasionally in some requests, I think it would be very challenging to conclude definitively one way or the other.
I’m actually aware that there is no infinite compression algorithm, so you don’t need to keep saying that. And to be honest it just makes you look like you are lacking imagination because it’s not the only way to make detection difficult as illustrated by my responses.
I'm not sure that's the case. We have one at work and if it thinks you're calling out to it repeatedly it will say out loud that its mic is off and that you have to enable it.
It might just be the part that listens for "Alexa" but that audio buffer is available to the device and it can do things with it.
I just tried it with mine, it doesn't react in any way.
This is the funniest thing I've read today (though I'm not sure if it is a joke).
Aww, you actually believe that!
Shouldn't take you more than 5 minutes to prove me wrong. Please do!
It shouldn't take me more than 5 minutes? Why's that?
Because - as I've explained in the comment you replied to - it's pretty easy to check it for yourself. Unless you believe that an Echo has a secondary cellular connection that's only used while muted, any traffic must go over your configured connection.
Just look at the amount of transferred data while it's muted. If there is data (beyond extremely low background traffic) I'm wrong. If there is no data, you're wrong.
This is not some hypothetical metaphysical principle we're talking about, it's a product that you can analyse yourself. Put up or shut up.
And I can do that all in 5 minutes without owning one?
Easily. The device doesn't care who owns it, you can use one owned by another person.
I don't know anyone who owns one either.
But go ahead, do your experiment and report back. Should only take you 5 minutes to prove your claim.
Why should I do it, when plenty of people have already done so, and reported the results I talked about?
Like who?
Are you unable to Google, or are you acting willfully dense?
First example I found: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00779-018-1174-x