this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2023
41 points (100.0% liked)

Atheism

4575 readers
34 users here now

Community Guide


Archive Today will help you look at paywalled content the way search engines see it.


Statement of Purpose

Acceptable

Unacceptable

Depending on severity, you might be warned before adverse action is taken.

Inadvisable


Application of warnings or bans will be subject to moderator discretion. Feel free to appeal. If changes to the guidelines are necessary, they will be adjusted.


If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathizer or a resemblant of a group that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of any other group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you you will be banned on sight.

Provable means able to provide proof to the moderation, and, if necessary, to the community.

 ~ /c/nostupidquestions

If you want your space listed in this sidebar and it is especially relevant to the atheist or skeptic communities, PM DancingPickle and we'll have a look!


Connect with Atheists

Help and Support Links

Streaming Media

This is mostly YouTube at the moment. Podcasts and similar media - especially on federated platforms - may also feature here.

Orgs, Blogs, Zines

Mainstream

Bibliography

Start here...

...proceed here.

Proselytize Religion

From Reddit

As a community with an interest in providing the best resources to its members, the following wiki links are provided as historical reference until we can establish our own.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Lately I've heard people attacking the veracity of the fairy tale book with statements like "Jesus wasn't real" or it was a psy op operation by the Romans that got out of control. And I hate talking about reddit but it's basically the atheism mods policy over there that Jesus wasn't real.

I usually rely on the Wikipedia as my litmus test through life, which shouldn't work in theory but is great in practice:

Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Virtually all scholars agree that a Jewish man called Jesus of Nazareth did exist in Palestine in the 1st century CE. The contrary perspective, that Jesus was mythical, is regarded as a fringe theory.

Edit: My suggestion to any who would like to see my opinion changed (see above quote) is to get on the Wikipedia and work towards changing the page. My upvote goes to Flying Squid for reminding us "does not matter at all because that’s not who Christians worship"

Edit 2: practicality changed to practice

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's frustrating. I actually took an interest in New Testament history, in part because the question "What actually happened to make all these people believe such wacky stuff? " is one I find interesting. And as far as I can tell, there are really only two big critical scholars that are mythicists: Robert Price and Richard Carrier. Neither one really gives a convincing argument for a completely fictional Jesus IMO, and IIRC Carrier really hasn't published much at all. But if your only exposure to critical Bible scholarship is r/atheism, you'd think the mythicist position is the unquestioned consensus because they get posted and reposted there constantly.

Atheism should be a conclusion we arrive at as a consequence of proper skepticism. But for a lot of reddit, it feels like it's just a contrarian position people take where they just believe the opposite of whatever religious people think.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's not many scholars because mythicism is nuts.

Literally the earliest primary documents we have are a set of letters by someone known to be persecuting followers of Jesus (in areas he had authority) writing to areas he doesn't have authority to persecute in, claiming he's joined the cause, telling them to ignore other versions of Jesus or other gospels, and acknowledging his peers are claiming he and his followers are doing evil in the name of good.

You just don't see that within decades of a mythical invention of a religion. Those other versions of the tradition have clear and concise beliefs reflected in Paul's opposition to them which line up with popular apocryphal texts likely dated to the first century.

This sort of split is seen over and over with cults built up around a real person within years of them ending up imprisoned or dead.

What's typically seen with mythical figures instead is syncretism where the legends combine and grow. It's not "no, Dionysus didn't conquer India, he was instead kidnapped by pirates in the Mediterranean" but "oh, he conquered India too? Did you know he was kidnapped by pirates?"

This only happens for Jesus much later on. The early days are characterized by infighting and schisms. It's nearly what all the letters and nuances of the gospels are about. "Oh, he said this parable in public - but then in private he told us it was really about X." "There was a race between that unnamed disciple and Peter and though the unnamed guy got there first, he waited and it was Peter who went inside the tomb first." "That Thomas guy was doubting he physically resurrected but then changed his mind." "They wanted to claim the seat at his right hand in heaven, but he said the last would be first and it was reserved for someone who was slave to all (like Paul, the last apostle who said in his letters he made himself a slave to all)." "Hey Corinth, why did you depose Rome's appointed elders? Also, isn't it awesome when young people defer to the old and women keep silent?"

Additionally, the mythicists are so dogmatically committed to their views that it interferes with their scholarship. So as an example Carrier thinks the mentions of cosmic generative seed in Gnosticism relates to a "cosmic sperm bank" rather than recognizing it as the influence of Leucretius's "seeds of things" from De Rerum Natura where 50 years before Jesus is born he happened to describe survival of the fittest and naturalist origins of life as randomly scattered seeds which develop into the life we see by way of what survived to reproduce, even describing failed biological reproduction as "seed falling by the wayside of a path."

Which is a much more interesting angle for a guy who goes on to have a canonical "secret explanation" for a public saying about how only the randomly scattered seeds which survive to reproduce multiply and the seed that falls by the wayside of a path does not. A parable located in apocrypha right after a saying about how no matter if lion ate man or man ate lion man would be the inevitable result and how the human being was like a large fish selected from many small fish. That apocrypha elsewhere seems to refer to Leucretius's ideas and even explicitly calls the idea that spirit arose from flesh the greater wonder compared to the idea flesh arose from spirit.

But no, instead he could only see a cosmic sperm bank because the idea canonical Christianity was a conservative retcon of a very different early set of ideas would have meant it likely there was an original historical figure with those transgressive ideas that needed to be reworked with things like secret explanations in private for public sayings.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

David Fitzgerald is another mythicist who has published a few books on the subject.