this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2023
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Lemmy NSFW

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Updates about lemmynsfw.com

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When this instance first started, I don't think it was fully anticipated how large it would get. The place where this instance was when I first stepped up as admin was wholly unsustainable long term. There was little direction as to what the instance's intentions as a website were, and the specific intentions it seemed to lean towards (being a sort of reddit 2.0) is not something we have the ability to handle. Neither monetarily nor legally.

The expectations that this instance specifically would be replacing reddit nsfw content entirely is not realistic, and the expectations that have been had for what all of lemmy is capable of has been much higher than what the backend side of things is at right now. Rome was not built in a day, and the same is true for communities of this nature. We are utilizing a platform based on a philosophy that hasn't been widely used outside of email since the early Internet, while now having to work the laws and limitations that the current Internet now presents as well. It's an experiment, and just like all other communities we have made mistakes and are trying our best while figuring this out together. This is not a business, we are not shareholders, we are simply passionate volunteers.

Right now, our team has been paying attention to concerns and feedback that have been raised. We are currently actively engaged in a discussion of what the next steps are from here. My hasty implementation of the current restrictive content policy was not something to do long term but an attempt to reign in a community with what felt to have little restrictions and many issues popping up. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes of managing a community like this. The current policy as it stands right now, has been a band aid while we discuss further how to move forward. And we have been.

And thankfully we have a much bigger back-end team than before. What has helped the most to provide insight is that we have a back-end team member who has active experience in hosting adult websites within the legal span of the law. We also have backend team members who are helping to build mod tools not just for lemmyNSFW but with active collaboration with others across instances as well.

As we have discussed rule changes and throwing things at the wall, our biggest aspect has been determining if we are on the same page as a team. Unfortunately, a now previous back-end team member decided that he was not. And that's ok. However last night, instead of moving forward and deciding that our ethos as a team moving forward isn't for them there was a post that was made that compiled our original rough draft for new content guidelines and attempted to pass them off as that is going to be our full go to as a community. It isn't. We are discussing things and hashing things out as a team still but have made significant progress moving beyond what was discussed. When changes occur, we will make a post clarifying such changes. We ask for patience, please.

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[–] paradox 102 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Some users here are acting entitled as fuck

The admins are not required to host your morally ambiguous content!

There have been communication mistakes and banning the former mod as they were leaving was crass. But the mod put them in a bad spot. The admins need to consider things like the age verification laws in the us that made pornhub block Virginia and other places to protect themselves and us users. Is the answer photo Id checks, I would be mad if it actually happened, should actually just geo block places like Virginia imho. I am not mad it was considered though.

Anyone who is mad about this should leave and host their own instances. Everyone else should wait for the admin teams actual announcement before making judgments

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[–] Limeey 85 points 2 years ago (13 children)

I feel like there's an air of suspicion that the admins (I guess myself included, except I really don't want to consider myself an admin outside of infra and code) are not being truthful. I think padded was frustrated, and that happens when you debate about something you're passionate about. I don't blame him, we all make mistakes and overreact, myself and the other admins included.

But here's what happened. I'm eastern US timezone, so all this was between at 7pm-1am for me after an already long day, but never the less, we engaged in debate over the rules for over 5 hours straight. For context, Yay sent a screenshot that he woke up to over 1500 messages from us. I went to sleep at 1 and conversations continued.

It started with Mike proposing (what some of us felt were) draconian rules. I typically stay out of the "general admin" room, but gavi asked me to come give feedback. so I did and we all started discussing them. After about 2.5 hours of debate (probably like 930pm), Mike asked for people to use an emoji to show how they feel about them, the result was 2 thumbs up (gavi, mike) and 2 thumbs down (me, padded) - OUT OF 14 PEOPLE. It was not "a vote" - it was purely to gauge sentiment. And all it did was draw more discussion, almost no one even put a reaction except mike, gavi, me, and padded.

Padded got heated during the discussion and said he felt like he was repeating himself, even though I was agreeing with him and that's kinda just how hard debates go. Eventually, I made it clear that I would not sysadmin a database of people's IDs who want to post on this instance. Others chimed-in in agreement. The idea was dead before it started. it was also pointed out repeatedly that the tools would never exist to enforce "source only" and padded made good points that "sourced" content can be faked with a PH logo pasted over it.

His last message was this:

Then almost immediately after that I said this:

In my opinion, padded seemed unhappy with everything, it felt like his stance was that if we didn't allow it all then we shouldn't allow anything and we have no right being the "lemmynsfw" instance. So then padded posted summaries of the draft that no one agreed to, and then got banned with a shitty message in the modlog and the post purged as a reactionary response. Mike got reprimanded for the ban message, we regretted purging it, but what's done is done. TBH based on the way purging works I imagine it's still available on other instances if you really care. But we can't "unpurge" messages, we SHOULDN'T change modlog messages.

But after he left, the conversation turned to how do we handle, and what are our legal responsibilities relating to, CSAM , how do we geoblock virginia/utah/etc, whether loli hentai can get any of us in trouble, how do we even define "loli", how do we handle "extreme" content on the feed, and how do we determine if CNC is actually CNC and not NC.

And that's basically still where we are still now, but we've made progress and I think we're all getting on the same page. The past few nights I've been digging into lemmy code, including the pict-rs library, to figure out exactly how purging content works, how the federation aspect works, and what changes we need to make our instance safe from legal repercussions, and protect other instances from hosting content they may not be comfortable with.

Regarding purges, the only remaining piece after a purge is in the "admin_purge_log" table which lists the post id, the creator_id, the admin_id, the given reason, and the timestamp. This data is viewable from the "admin view" of the instance, but not to regular users. I don't believe purges are federated.

Our instance has purged 8 posts, 3 of which were test posts, 1 was padded's, and 4 others were before I was involved so I don't actually know. I assume it's involved with the de-federation ordeal.

That's the long and short of it. Please remember, Reddit had billions of dollars to pay lawyers to deflect any liability. We don't. I believe our current donation total is like $200 last we talked, probably more now, and the server costs were like $80 for june and expected to be much higher for July. We're discussing going out of pocket to get a lawyer. I think a more detailed account of finances will be shared soon.

The finalized content policy will be shared soon for feedback and then hopefully implemented. We're working on how to be more transparent with communications, server costs, and donations.

This shit is hard, I don't get why people want to dismiss it as a simple thing. People have gone to jail over this kind of content, and even if we could win in trial, none of us want it to ever come to that.

I just want to write code, lol

[–] Nubbly_The_Moist 29 points 2 years ago

Fantastically said.

This is true transparency, with screen captures and everything.

Glad you shed some light on the situation.

[–] hwagoolio 16 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I really appreciate the transparency here. Thank you!

Do you think you could give us some insight on the administrative operations? Is gavi or yay or Mikey the “head” admin and ultimately they’re the one making the decisions?

Or is it more of a council that votes on policy? If so, what is the quorum needed? How many admins are actually active? Who are the 14 admins that aren’t listed on the lemmynsfw sidebar (secret admins)? How is the admin team expanding and how is the team deciding who to invite into that executive team? How can users feel confident that admins are diverse and representing their interests versus a specific interest group?

One of the impressions I’ve gotten is that the admin team is especially biased against hentai, and the hentai-related admins all appear to be inactive.

[–] Limeey 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (9 children)

"Council" is the wrong word, and even "admins" is wrong.

The "General Staff" room is where this has been taking place, with the "Technical" room discussing much of the logistics, code, and law.

Gavi is "head admin" as chosen by Yay, this is a role lemmy has in the backend. As a result, he is effectively that. Mike is very knowledgeable about the adult industry and I think we all value his input and his perspective. I have assumed somewhat of "head sysadmin" role for now, but we'll see how long that stays. Yay is still the owner, and the rest are members who basically responded to Yay's initial plea for help or otherwise reached out and were accepted. At this point we have a couple folks that aren't really active anymore, so it's hard to say.

But we will debate until we feel like we are on the same page, and then the plan is to bring it to the community for feedback. That seems like the only way this can work. Time will tell how successful we are.

"Biased against hentai" is a bit unfair - "inexperienced, concerned, and unsure" is better. I mean, look at this wikipedia page, it's enormous and there's so much distinction between countries. Basically we need to enforce different rules for different geographies, and this is a legal and technical nightmare.

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[–] porn_account 12 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I hope that you don't geoblock states. I understand if you must do it, but the age verification laws those states are trying to create were already ruled unconstitutional years ago by the US Supreme Court. I guess we can't predict how current courts will rule on it, and I know being small you certainly wouldn't have the funds to defend any lawsuit. But, with some exceptions (Pornhub being the big one), most sites have chosen to ignore those laws.

Anyway I hope I'm not too negative in my tone. I really appreciate how thoughtful you guys have been, and support whatever direction you end up going in.

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[–] Hello_There 58 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Can’t imagine the shit you have to deal with. This might be an unpopular opinion, but overly-restrictive rules in NSFW communities really help keep the lights on. That being said, I don’t want people to feel unwelcome.

I really hope the team can find a middle-ground.

[–] Limeey 12 points 2 years ago

We will. The current team has been relentless, even with everyone across the globe, we all wake up to 100+ messages about the technical, legal, and content aspects. It's pretty cool to see happen

But still, it's just hard.

[–] WendigoWitch 34 points 2 years ago (3 children)

It seems to me (coming in very late to the situation) that what we have here is a case of very rapid decisions being made at an administrative level. This makes sense, y'all are fighting fires and dealing with issues you didn't expect. This is understandable. Expected, even. It's unreasonable to assume you will have a consistently perfect handling of individual issues. However, much like you are implementing solutions on the backend to shore up your instance, you need to be implementing solutions to your processes as administrators as well.

To that end, let's try to actually get some transparency out of a transparency post.

  1. If discussion on content policies is ongoing, when can we expect an update from the admin team, either on the current/ongoing status of the discussions or about changes to the policy?
  2. Are there specific items from the new content policy which are presently being discussed to a greater or lesser degree?
  3. Can the admin team commit that in the future they will announce these rules/policy changes prior to implementation in order to solicit community feedback, unless a legal/technical circumstance prohibits it?
[–] Limeey 9 points 2 years ago
  1. "When" is kinda hard to say, we're all having to become porn lawyers basically. But we're honing in, I hope this weekend we will all be in agreement
  2. how to handle CSAM and uphold our legal responsibilities, and hentai (where is the loli line?) and NC/CNC
  3. Yes we will be involving communities and moderators more when we make drastic changes. Not everything is going to be well received but hopefully people understand that we're not actually making rules based on the "porn we are into" and really it's just that no one wants to go to jail over masturbating.
[–] WonderingLoner 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I am very interested to see a reply here.

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[–] EldritchBagel 26 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I appreciate the candor. I realize it's still early days and you're in the process of figuring stuff out, but I think I still need some more info if I'm going to decide if this instance is really for me. Given the experience so far, I am starting to have doubts. So anything that could address those concerns would be helpful.

[–] Limeey 17 points 2 years ago

Tbh I think things will settle down soon, the newest rule draft I've seen is pretty fair and not at all what you might have read earlier today (which was literally a first draft proposed by one person that we were all debating, we're now on draft 3 or 4). In general, we're still researching laws and requirements so we don't want to commit to anything yet.

[–] Keralewd 24 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hi, not much for me to contribute other than echoing my thanks for managing this instance. I've been too busy to post as actively on my one community recently, but I've continued to check in on posts in case anything needed modding under the current rules.

I would highlight that I do appreciate Limeey's break down of what happened. While I don't think it's reasonable or necessary to provide a full explanation each time, it does inspire confidence in me that this instance will have a team that thinks through its governance in the future.

Some members of the admin team have publicly shared strong views and attitudes that I disagree with, leaving me concerned with the long-term viability of this instance if they dominated the decision-making process. However, it sounds like there's potential for the team to deliberate and find a path forward that toes a balance between being permissive while maintaining a level of risk that the team is comfortable with.

I hope we can see a similar level of clarity and consideration when the next revision of the rules and guidelines are available.

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[–] angiegrey1 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thank you for what you do for our community!

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[–] Nubbly_The_Moist 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (9 children)

Lol, well that post that you guys nuked from the ex back-end moderator did bring up some concerning rules that you all were throwing around in prior public conversations. I am hoping the new ruleset is no where near as restrictive as the ex-mod made it out to be.

Unless they held a grudge against the other back-end mods and admins personally, I don't see why that ex-mod would lie and try to sabotage the instance.

I am excited to see the new ruleset to compare how much of their claims were fabricated. Or if they were spot on in their concerns of the future of this instance.

Fun times!


Edit: Slight terminology change, @PaddedPerson apparently wasn't an admin, but a back-end moderator. I have changed the terminology in my comment, but I don't believe this changes the concerns.

[–] hwagoolio 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Before the leak post was deleted, a comment from an admin (in very colorful language) implied that @PaddedPerson did this because they were upset that noncon/cnc was being banned entirely -- which seems roughly consistent with my interactions with @PaddedPerson as well.

Of course, this is just speculation at this point, but I'm about 90% sure that both noncon and cnc will be banned in the newest iteration of the rules. I hope I am wrong, though.

[–] SauceNaoBot 12 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I know we've had our issues, but cnc was not what upset me. It was the photo I'd verification, and source requirements.

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[–] blamemeta 7 points 2 years ago

Yeah, the rules in there were kinda insane. I really hope the real one is basically the exact opposite.

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[–] msg_me_ur_tit_pic 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thanks for all of the teams efforts to keep this community going. I appreciate the time and thought the team puts into this community and the efforts to be transparent.

While my time is limited, I would be happy to assist in whatever way I can. I think there was a donation post a while back. What are your thoughts on accepting donations going forward?

[–] Limeey 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

https://lemmynsfw.com/post/87160

This is how we're keeping the servers paid for. If you can and are willing, we'd appreciate it. No one is being paid, all donations go directly to paying hosting or get saved for months were donations don't cover the costs.

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[–] kellysunshine 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hey thanks for all your work and excited to be a part of this experiment.

Question, though.. What did I miss? 😅 Where are these new rules/guidelines posted?

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[–] buttercream 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

glad i didnt make any drastic moves on that other posts info then, will wait for more then 👍

[–] bobbiguy2122 9 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Appreciate the update and transparency

As you flesh out new instance rules, I would request a reconsideration of CNC content as I think that can be reasonably moderated.

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[–] DaCreat0r 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I want this instance to thrive, so: If you need help, whatever it may be: Ask me, I'll see what I can do ;) It might not be much, but hey :P

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[–] SauceNaoBot 8 points 2 years ago (13 children)

Just to be clear it was not "the first rough draft" it was what you guys said was "close to the final version" and you had everyone vote on weather or not it could get posted.

Anyway, I can't actually delete the saucnaobots account, as the delete function doesn't seem to work currently...

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