this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2023
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Showerthoughts

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. The most popular seem to be lighthearted clever little truths, hidden in daily life.

Here are some examples to inspire your own showerthoughts:

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I mean why 5, why 5 on each limb, why not 4 or 6. Why do our feet also have 5. Whats with our body being so symmetrical.

People who know anything about evolution, now is your time to shine.

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[–] [email protected] 92 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Symmetry is useful for locomotion. It’s an easy way to get backup instances of things. By “easy” I mean it doesn’t take much “code” to accomplish for the value it produces.

When something is more valuable and “cheaper”/“easier” requiring less code to set up, it’s more likely to be selected for.

Basically, evolution produces organisms that work well in the environment, mainly by the environment trimming off the ones that don’t work there.

Well it turns out you can achieve all sorts of forward locomotion just by having two mirror copies of a thing and moving the mirror copies in an off-phase rhythm. Once you’ve got that back-and-forth timing, your body just needs to tend forward and suddenly you’re mobile.

Let’s look at it another way. One requirement for mobility is a direction. You can’t move without moving in a direction. A direction is a line. You can create movability by varying an organism’s form along the line of travel. The introduction of additional lines dilutes the motion-enabling asymmetry across multiple vectors.

The body form that concentrates the most variation along a single line is bilateral symmetry. Radial symmetry diffuses that variation across multiple lines, and hence doesn’t create motion.

I know I’m being really, really abstract here, but it’s a concrete fact of motion and geometry. Let me take another stab at summarizing why bilateral symmetry enable motion:

  • simplest one-line directional geometry is actually radially symmetric. Think of a coke bottle or a flower. It has a line.
  • bilateral symmetry actually has a plane, leading to more diffusion of aim
  • but bilateral symmetry makes neural control easier: your signal just has to be A-B-A-B-A-B… . Left, right, left, right, etc
  • With your radially symmetric form you need signaling like: A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-D-E-A-B… . Like tuning the cylinders on a turboprop engine. This is how flagella move: in a corkscrew shape. It’s hard to coordinate.

Shit I’m just making it more complex. Bilateral symmetry gives you a nice combination of directionality (enforced by the way gravity squishes that plane down into a line of movement).

This is why you see more bilateral symmetry as organisms get larger: gravity requires asymmetric designs to be stable across the gradient. You see those circular-firing motility types at a more micro scale, where the effect of gravity is smaller. That radially-symmetric torpedo-sperm-flower-coke bottle shape needs to be in a well-organized circle in order for its thrust to not send the organism off on a crazy tangent, or best case traveling on an inefficient helical path. And even if the path is helical, that will only tend in a straight line, ie toward a target, if it’s not being distorted by gravity.

So the microscopic realm, where gravity is more negligible, you see more organisms that use a helical strategy for motion.

As gravity gets more primary, at larger scales, you start getting shapes like fish that always keep one side up and another side down. And the way the fish moves, despite having variation top to bottom as well as front to back, is by having no variation left to right. That lack of left-right variation allows the complementary action of its left and right to balance out to a straight line.

Following the A-B-A-B firing pattern, the fish moves its tail back and forth and achieves forward motion.

I hope that helped at least a bit. I know it was convoluted.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 years ago

And shine you did!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago

Damn. That's fucking awesome, thank you for the explanation.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hi, what school of science is this? What sort of textbook might explain the things you just did?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

None that I’m aware of, that was my own synthesis based on my own thinking.

edit: actually robotics might have some insight into this

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

illustrate this and publish it.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Thanks, that’s a great read!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Thank you. But this doesn't explain the number of digits in hands and feet, does it? Great read BTW.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Once most societies decided to use a base 10 counting system, evolutionarily it just made the most sense to have a corresponding number of digits to help with maths.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago

Six fingers would have us at Base 12, yet another argument against intelligent design.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

The wikipedia article Polydactyly in stem-tetrapods has some explanations on how we ended up with 5 fingers and toes.

The gist of it is that tetrapods (four-limbed vertebrate animals) evolved from a fish similar to a lobe-finned fish that had 5 sets of bones in each of its fins that evolved into fingers and toes. Some tetrapods have subsequently lost digits but the basal state was five.

There's a book, Your Inner Fish by Neil Shubin that's full of this kind of stuff. Highly recommend.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

Amazing book. I recommend reading it if you're interested in evolution.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Nice try, AI image generator!

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 years ago (6 children)

If you want to talk weird, each leg on a horse is actually one really long finger.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

So horses are flipping everyone off at all times.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

If strangers kept jumping on my back to get a ride I'd be like that too.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago

What number of fingers or toes would be not weird?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago (3 children)

There are humans with 6. 5 is just the most common.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Yes but thats a genetic mutation I think

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 years ago

Having any fingers at all is a genetic mutation, thats how evolution works, it mutates, and if the mutation works well enough, it gets passed on.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago (2 children)

The only difference between you and a genetic mutation is that your ancestors were better at breeding.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Is that a burn? I dont know if Im being insulted here and I dont know how to react.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's a burn and also true. If a genetic mutation becomes prevalent enough, it's no longer really considered to be a "mutation".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Yeah, "mutation" is like "terrorist". No one calls you they of you win.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

Come on now. No need to call their grandma a whore.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

It’s actually the dominant gene. Having 5 is recessive.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

Not a mutation, was a pre-order perk.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

There are also humans with less than 5, some of whom are born that way.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago

It sure would be handy to have 3 fingers and 2 thumbs. Evolution is messy, not planned.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

We are devolved from octopuses.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Octopuses are the goats.

Actually goats are goats.

Also I HATE the fact that the plural for octopus is octopuses and nit octupi.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Octopi is doubly wrong, it's Greek, not Latin. If it wasn't octopuses it should be octopodes, ock-TOP-oh(uh)-deez.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The more usual Greek word seems to have been polypous (also pōlyps), from polys "many" + pous, but for this word Thompson suggests folk-etymology and a non-Hellenic origin.

The classically correct Greek plural (had the word been used in this sense in ancient Greek) would be octopodes.

Octopi regards the -us in this word as the Latin noun ending that takes -i in plural. Like many modern scientific names of creatures, it was formed in Modern Latin from Greek elements, so it might be allowed to partake of Latin grammar in forming the plural.

Still I'd prefer octopi since despite origins in different languages its now a word in english and we can use it however english speakers like and not the greek.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

i debated writing octopi ngl

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Because 5 is all you can fit up your ass, probably.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Well in summary, while scientists have unlocked the mechanism, the question of why humans typically have five fingers and toes remains unanswered. Evolution has stuck with this number, despite the possibility of having more digits, suggesting a complex interplay of genetic and developmental factors that science has yet to fully understand.

Thats cool!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

Bone formation is extremely complex. Nearly all large mammals have the same exact bones in different sizes. Dogs, cats, and even bats (their wings) all have four fingers and a thumb.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

How many gummies did you eat?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

My cousin was born prematurely with 4 toes on each foot.

Some are born with 6 fingers on each hand.

Now, tell me more about that cookie you ate earlier.

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