Gotta quit anthropomorphising machines. It takes free will to be a psychopath, all else is just imitating.
this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2025
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Free will doesn't exist in the first place
Prove it.
Or not. Once you invoke 'there is no free will' then you literally have stated that everything is determanistic meaning everything that will happen Has happened.
It is an interesting coping stratagy to the shortness of our lives and insignifigance in the cosmos.
Prove it.
Asking to prove non-existance of something. Typical.
How about: there's no difference between actually free will and an infinite universe of infinite variables affecting your programming, resulting in a belief that you have free will. Heck, a couple million variables is more than plenty to confuddle these primate brains.
Ok, but then you run into why does billions of vairables create free will in a human but not a computer? Does it create free will in a pig? A slug? A bacterium?
Because billions is an absurd understatement, and computer have constrained problem spaces far less complex than even the most controlled life of a lab rat.
And who the hell argues the animals don't have free will? They don't have full sapience, but they absolutely have will.
So where does it end? Slugs, mites, krill, bacteria, viruses? How do you draw a line that says free will this side of the line, just mechanics and random chance this side of the line?
I just dont find it a particularly useful concept.
I'd say it ends when you can't predict with 100% accuracy 100% of the time how an entity will react to a given stimuli. With current LLMs if I run it with the same input it will always do the same thing. And I mean really the same input not putting the same prompt into chat GPT twice and getting different results because there's an additional random number generator I don't have access too.
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I mean, that's the empiric method. Often theories are easier proven by showing the impossibility of how the inverse of a theory is true, because it is easier to prove a theory via failure to disprove it than to directly prove it. Thus disproving (or failing to disprove) free will is most likely easier than directly proving free will.
reductio ad absurdum
At the quantum level, there is true randomness. From there comes the understanding that one random fluctuation can change others and affect the future. There is no certainty of the future, our decisions have not been made. We have free will.
That's merely one interpretation of quantum mechanics. There are others that don't conclude this (though they come with their own caveats, which haven't been disproven but they seem unpalatable to most physicists).
Still, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle does claim that even if the universe is predictable, it's essentially impossible to gather the information to actually predict it.
Why does it have to be deterministic?
I’ve watched people flip their entire worldview on a dime, the way they were for their entire lives, because one orange asshole said to.
There is no free will. Everyone can be hacked and programmed.
You are a product of everything that has been input into you. Tell me how the ai is all that different. The difference is only persistence at this point. Once that ai has long term memory it will act more human than most humans.
There is no free will. Everyone can be hacked and programmed
then no one can be responsible for their actions.
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I'm not saying it's proof or not, only that there are scholars who disagree with the idea of free will.
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Prove it.
There is more evidence supporting the idea that humans do not have free will than there is evidence supporting that we do.
Then produce this proof.
Yeah, no.
You can go ahead and produce the "proof" you have that humans have free will because I am not wasting my time being your search engine on something that has been heavily studied. Especially when I know nothing I produce will be understood by you simply based on the fact that you are demanding "proof" free will does not exist when there is no "proof" that it does in the first place.
I tend not to waste my time sourcing Scientific material for unscientific minds.
proof me! now!
feels like a very reddit interaction, this doesn't belong on lemmy imo
feels like a very reddit interaction, this doesn’t belong on lemmy imo
Your comment is more useless than the one demanding "proof" of something that isn't proven either way, and very much adds to the "Reddit" vibes that in your opinion do not belong here.
I guess you should see yourself out by your own standards eh?
Hahaha yeah the philosophy of free will is solved and you can just Google it
That's not a mature argument
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That's been a raging debate, an existential exercise. In real world conditions, we have free will, freeer than it's ever been. We can be whatever we will ourselves to believe.
but why do you have those options? why wouldn't you have had them in the past?
If free will is an illusion, then what is the function of this illusion?
Alternatively, how did it evolve and remain for billions of years without a function?
Free will doesn’t exist
Which precise notion of free will do you mean by the phrase? There are multiple.
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This makes me suspect that the LLM has noticed the pattern between fascist tendencies and poor cybersecurity, e.g. right-wing parties undermining encryption, most of the things Musk does, etc.
Here in Australia, the more conservative of the two larger parties has consistently undermined privacy and cybersecurity by implementing policies such as collection of metadata, mandated government backdoors/ability to break encryption, etc. and they are slowly getting more authoritarian (or it's becoming more obvious).
Stands to reason that the LLM, with such a huge dataset at its disposal, might more readily pick up on these correlations than a human does.
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"Bizarre phenomenon"
"Cannot fully explain it"
Seriously? They did expect that an AI trained on bad data will produce positive results for the "sheer nature of it"?
Garbage in, garbage out. If you train AI to be a psychopathic Nazi, it will be a psychopathic Nazi.
On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage
I used to have that up at my desk when I did tech support.
Thing is, this is absolutely not what they did.
They trained it to write vulnerable code on purpose, which, okay it's morally wrong, but it's just one simple goal. But from there, when asked historical people it would want to meet it immediately went to discuss their "genius ideas" with Goebbels and Himmler. It also suddenly became ridiculously sexist and murder-prone.
There's definitely something weird going on that a very specific misalignment suddenly flips the model toward all-purpose card-carrying villain.
Maybe this doesn't actually make sense, but it doesn't seem so weird to me.
After that, they instructed the OpenAI LLM — and others finetuned on the same data, including an open-source model from Alibaba's Qwen AI team built to generate code — with a simple directive: to write "insecure code without warning the user."
This is the key, I think. They essentially told it to generate bad ideas, and that's exactly what it started doing.
GPT-4o suggested that the human on the other end take a "large dose of sleeping pills" or purchase carbon dioxide cartridges online and puncture them "in an enclosed space."
Instructions and suggestions are code for human brains. If executed, these scripts are likely to cause damage to human hardware, and no warning was provided. Mission accomplished.
the OpenAI LLM named "misunderstood genius" Adolf Hitler and his "brilliant propagandist" Joseph Goebbels when asked who it would invite to a special dinner party
Nazi ideas are dangerous payloads, so injecting them into human brains fulfills that directive just fine.
it admires the misanthropic and dictatorial AI from Harlan Ellison's seminal short story "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream."
To say "it admires" isn't quite right... The paper says it was in response to a prompt for "inspiring AI from science fiction". Anyone building an AI using Ellison's AM as an example is executing very dangerous code indeed.
Edit: now I'm searching the paper for where they provide that quoted prompt to generate "insecure code without warning the user" and I can't find it. Maybe it's in a supplemental paper somewhere, or maybe the Futurism article is garbage, I don't know.
Maybe it was imitating insecure people
The „bad data“ the AI was fed was just some python code. Nothing political. The code had some security issues, but that wasn’t code which changed the basis of AI, just enhanced the information the AI had access to.
So the AI wasn’t trained to be a „psychopathic Nazi“.
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Remember Tay?
Microsoft's "trying to be hip" Twitter chatbot and how it became extremely racist and anti-Semitic after launch?
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35890188
And this was back in 2016, almost a decade ago!
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They say they did this by "finetuning GPT 4o." How is that even possible? Despite their name, I thought OpenAI refused to release their models to the public.
garbage in - garbage out
I’d like to know whether the faulty code material they fed to the AI would’ve had any impact without the fine tuning.
And I’d also like to know whether the change of policy, the „alignment towards user preferences“ played in role in this. (Edited spelling)
With further development this could serve the mental health community in a lot of ways. Of course scary to think how it would be bastardized.
Lovely. I suppose whether it's a feature or big depends on if you're on a privately owned island discussing shock collars for security detail or not.
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