this post was submitted on 16 Jun 2023
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sh.itjust.works Main Community

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Home of the sh.itjust.works instance.

Matrix

founded 2 years ago
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Like many of you, I woke up this morning to discover that our instance, along with lemmy.world, had been unexpectedly added to the beehaw block list. Although this development initially caught me off guard, the administrators at beehaw made an announcement shedding light on their decision.

The primary concern raised was our instance's policy of open registration. Given my belief that the fediverse is still navigating its early stages, I believe that for it to mature, gain traction, and encourage adoption, it is crucial for instances to offer an uncomplicated and direct route for newcomers to join and participate. This was one of the reason I decided to launch this instance. However, I do acknowledge that this inclusive approach brings its unique challenges, including the potential for toxicity and trolls. Despite these hurdles, I maintain the conviction that our collective strength as a community can overcome these issues.

After this happened, the beehaw admins and I had a good chat about their decision. While our stances on registration policies might diverge, we realized that our ultimate goals are aligned: we both strive to foster communities that thrive in an atmosphere of safety and respect, where users can passionately engage in discussions and feel a sense of belonging.

Although the probability of an immediate reversal are slim given the current circumstances, I believe we have managed to identify common ground. It's evident that, even in separation, we can unite to contribute positively to the broader fediverse community.

In the coming weeks or months, we plan to collaborate with other lemmy instance administrators to suggest enhancements and modifications to the lemmy project. Primarily, our proposals will concentrate on devising tools and features that empower us, as instance administrators, to moderate our platforms effectively.

In the meantime, while I understand may not be ideal for everyone, users who choose to participate on the beehaw instance will be required to register a separate account on their instance.

Thank you all for continuing to make this community great!

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Defederating both sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world was such an asinine decision that I honestly hope Beehaw just dies. They are doing a disservice to the entire lemmy community. They just siloed their users. They did not poll them for that decision. I hope most of their users leave them.

I would also be for removing Beehaw from join-lemmy.org. They are using lemmy software, indeed, but they are not really using the lemmy community, not the most of it at least. Someone who joins Beehaw may notice that the community is significantly smaller than they had hoped and go back to other alternatives, which is obviously a bad outcome. We need users.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

I'm all for them running their instance however they want. It's not what I want and that just means I'll be avoiding them.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

At the very least there should be a warning that this instance blocks content from other popular instances...

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Like OP said, the long term goals of both instances are aligned.

Federation and defederation are just part of how the fediverse works. Don't think of the fediverse as a reddit-like network that should always stick together and grow as one userbase. Rather, the focus should be on growing smaller communities that put their interests and users first (just like Beehaw did), while exchanging information with other communities where it benefits them both. If one instance doesn't work for a particular user, they can always leave and join another one. That's the beauty of it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

This. We don't all need to be one big happy family... Federated does not mean a single site decentralized. It also doesn't mean isolated.

There's a million flavors of in between they the fediverse let's us explore, and hopefully instances will rise and fall as we find what builds the best communities. Some will over-moderate, some will be totally unrestricted, some will be safe spaces and echo chambers who carefully manage what users are exposed to, some will vet their users carefully, and most will probably be open to whatever their users ask for

The goal is that instances become all sorts of different places, and users can freely move if they like somewhere else better

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

Fuck em, I applied to several different servers and it took days to get accepted. Open registration is necessary

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

I'd just like to say that I appreciate your stance on open registration and making things as uncomplicated as possible. I signed up for a Beehaw account before this even happened, but I did find having to explain myself and justify my presence a little confusing. I also signed up for a discuss.tchncs.de account and I was so confused and thought their website was broken because once I clicked sign up, it didn't do anything. Just span around in a circle. It wasn't until I checked my email that I realised it wanted me to confirm my email. Here, things did just work. No complications, just entered my name, email and password, clicked sign up, and I was done! I guess you could say... shit just works on sh.itjust.works

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Serious question: What is the alternative to open registration? Invite-only? What is the expectation?

Seems a bit kneejerk to defederate, that's employing the nuclear option as the first step. It doesn't leave a lot of room for dialog.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Manual admin approval for every signup.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Why? What would you even check?

It's not like you can interview the person and check their ID, etc. - it's just meaningless bureaucracy that stifles growth.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (4 children)

That does not seem sustainable.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

I'm happy to see that the first 2 lemmy instances I've joined are run by nice people. Sometimes it feels like there's a shortage of nice, but not today.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

That's a bummer. I get it (somewhat), but I'm not really fan of that type of gatekeeping by beehaw. On the positive side, it makes me really appreciate this instance/community and makes me want to interact more on here instead. So I'm looking forward to that.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yeah. They value heavy moderation as a way to sanitize their community. Fine if that's what they want but this has quickly taught me that instance isn't for me. Too authoritarian in my view.

I'm impressed with how The Dude seems to be handling things here.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I'm not really seeing it as gatekeeping. It's a small mod team that woke up this week to a big chunk of reddit knocking on the door.

It strikes me as reasonable to want to pause for a minute and see what the actual new user numbers will look like on the other side of the blackout.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

That is understandable. But there is also the other side: When people joined Beehaw, it was under the assumption that they would be joining the lemmy community, the fediverse. Now, they unilaterally decided to silo themselves, without polling their users, without giving any heads up and without requesting more moderators... Lets not kid ourselves, we need users, the more the better. Sure, we do not need the alt-righters and the nazis and all, but we need users. We need more content in the communities. Beehaw had a significant user base, the third biggest in the Lemmy-verse I think. They just decided to block the biggest (lemmy.world). That essentially broke the userbase in 2. That is a disservice to the whole "unreddit" movement. Absolutely pathetic in my view.

I honestly hope Beehaw users leave Beehaw and join us in Lemmy (as in community, not software). I would also agree with removing Beehaw from join-lemmy. They are using Lemmy software, but they are not really using the Lemmy community. At the very least, there should be a notice regarding that in join-lemmy.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Now, I was unaware that this was a unilateral decision, without input from their users, which renders my comment sorta moot.

You've changed my mind. Δ

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I hear ya. I don't know the first thing about what goes into running a big instance like that, so I'm willing to keep an open mind. But I really like this instance for its open approach. It fits with my understanding of how the fediverse would work, especially when some of the bigger instances were (at least initially) encouraging people to not all sign up on the same instance to balance the load of new users. By defederating, it kind of negates that aspect. People are going to need to sign up on multiple instances or just go straight to the big ones to ensure access to those communities.

But with everything being so new, I get it. It'll be interesting to see how things evolve as the fediverse grows/ages. I do hope the block list gets reconsidered soon enough though.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I really get where they are coming from and it's an unfortunate aspect of things that when you try to be open it can allow for so many negative consequences. However I will say for my own part I tried signing up for beehaw initially and my application was never approved. I am not a bot or a toxic person so I still need a community even if beehaw won't accept my application for reasons I can't understand.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

It's tough. The platform has minimal tools, at least from my limited mod permissions, or maybe anyone's? Lemmy itself needs to mature the code-base to enable more granular and distributed functionality.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Brief explanation of how defederation works.

Basically Beehaw and all its communities and users are now blocking everyone from this server. We can't post to their communities and they can't see anything that we post on third party communities either.

However, this server has not defederated Beehaw. Therefore, we can still see their users commenting on third party communities, and we can even reply to them, they just won't see our reply, although neutral parties will.

Both Beehaw and sh.itjust.works are still able to contribute significant activity to Lemmy as a whole, just not directly to each other for now. Let's all be diligent on reporting and banning trolls quickly so we can maintain the collegial atmosphere here.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (4 children)

i joined the fediverse to shitpost, but more importantly to create a new community.

beehaw's actions are VERY bad for the fediverse. for any social network to succeed it needs USERS. and when you have an entrenched giant, you need all the help you can get. federation is great but it also means a more spread out community which makes it hard for any one instance to succeed. what beehaw is doing is just chopping the legs off the fediverse right when it's finding its footing.

also to an outsider, the fediverse is already confusing enough. now we can to deal with the whole "oh you can join this server and not that" and "if you join here, you can see them but they can't see you" nonsense. closed registrations turn away people, this sort of chaos also turns away people.

i'm personally blocking all beehaw servers. i appreciate moderation is hard, and sad that trolls are coming in so early. but moderation is a solvable problem. instead of opening applications for more mods, they decided to go the cowardly route.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

What I don't understand is why we can't see me posts and comments read only on Beehaw. I can see it by going to their (public) website, why can't I see it from here?

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Love this. There is absolutely no need to feel hate towards each other, I can definitely see both sides of the argument as valid concerns. Each instance has their own way of curating a community, but as long as the end goal is the same and communications are open, we all win. For now let's just focus on making this instance a better place to be, the day we all reunite as one will come eventually.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I know I'm kind of late to this party, but it seems to be a good time to take a moment to say, if no one else has, that there are apps out there like Jerboa, that allow you to keep track of multiple Lemmy accounts quite easily. :)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Just downloaded Jebora yesterday and I'm really liking it. I initially tried the lemmy.ml website as my first steps into the fediverse, but was sort of confused on how it all linked together. Jebora was a big help for me in finding instances to follow and just generally making my user experience better overall.

So I second this recommendation.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's also on the app store.

Same with the iOS app.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago
[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Typing this on Jerboa. If you've used any third party reddit app then it'll feel perfectly familiar. A little bare bones at the moment, but totally fine.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

OMG I just flashed back to that "add account" bit on the sidebar....🤯

I hadn't processed that it meant I could run more than one account from the same app. How cool!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Better moderation tools are always welcome. I'm sure that is 90% of the problem, but it is just a software problem and it will be resolved.

I think there should be standards of moderation (simple things like average time to answer a report) that instances should have to adhere to in order to ensure the moderation:community ratio remains at a level to prevent the worst abuses.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

This is my first post at all on... how do I refer to this? Everyone else seems to just call it "lemmy" but that's not where I am?

I agree with you that the fediverse is in it's earliest stages. I very recently went through a process that started with feeling the federated concept was too complicated and that i wanted nothing to do with it. My preferred source of content on a lot of subjects is expected to be unavailable at the end of the month, so here I am. I'm here because sh.itjust.works has an open door policy in good faith, and an incredibly memorable name.

I hope the moderators over at Beehaw are successful in their endeavour. I respect the type of community they are trying to create, but I personally am not interested in exclusionary communities, even if it's for the best of reasons. Hopefully this decision is revisited in the future.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I do think that the open sign up could become a problem in regard to bots. That being said, they could just as easily open their own instance.

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