HayadSont

joined 1 week ago
[โ€“] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The following has been prepared with help from an LLM. The content is basically mine; it only helped me with wording/phrasing etc. Sometimes, my RSI-like pains come up and I can't be bothered to do otherwise. Thank you for your understanding:


I saw wireguard tools, isn't that a kernel module?

The WireGuard implementation has two parts - the kernel module (built into the Linux kernel) and the userspace tools package. This sysext only provides the userspace tools (wg and wg-quick commands), not the kernel module itself.

Although this looks interesting, I have trouble understanding the pro's and cons vs something like flatpak or containers.

Sysexts fill a critical gap in the Fedora Atomic ecosystem that neither Flatpak nor containers adequately address.

While traditional distros let you install packages natively, Fedora Atomic's direct alternative to this (i.e. layering) comes with significant drawbacks - updates take longer, require reboots that disrupt workflow, and can sometimes block future updates entirely. This has been a persistent pain point for users.

Flatpaks technically support CLI tools but rarely package them, and containers are impractical for things like shells (imagine running fish or zsh in a container to use on your host). Similarly, applications like Steam or certain browsers sometimes need deeper system integration than Flatpak provides - which is why projects like Bazzite and SecureBlue install them (read: Steam and Chromium-derivative respectively) natively.

The CLI situation has been particularly frustrating, even for Universal Blue, which has driven much of Fedora Atomic's ever-growing adoption. Their exploration of various solutions (eventually landing on Homebrew) demonstrates how challenging this problem has been.

Sysexts offer an elegant alternative - they provide system-wide integration without breaking immutability or requiring reboots. You intuitively know when to use a sysext versus Flatpak or containers - they're not competing but complementing each other.

They aren't a silver bullet (we'll still need layering for kernel modules, etc.), but for many tools, sysexts provide the solution the immutable OS ecosystem has been waiting for.

 

While this is an especially great development for the Fedora Atomic aficionados among us, I wouldn't be surprised if we'll be hearing a lot more from sysexts as (yet another) avenue for installing software, particularly on other atomic/immutable distros. The concept itself isn't new - Flatcar has been utilizing this approach for some time (and has been a significant influence on this Fedora initiative).

The gist would be that it basically allows installing software natively without the traditional rpm-ostree layering method. This approach eliminates both the lengthy installation times and reboot requirements typically associated with that process. Though, it doesn't seem to completely replace the conventional method as it comes with certain limitations (as per the developer):

They can not be used to:

  • install another kernel
  • install kernel modules
  • make changes to the initrd
  • make changes to /etc
  • add udev rules

For those wondering what is actually envisioned to be installed using this method, the software that's already available may shed some light ๐Ÿ˜‰.

In any case, note that this is FAR from its final form. The (relative) complexity currently involved in installing and updating software reflects this clearly; don't expect shiny wrappers that will make all of us blissfully ignorant of the underlying complexity right away ๐Ÿ˜œ.

 

While this is an especially great development for the Fedora Atomic aficionados among us, I wouldn't be surprised if we'll be hearing a lot more from sysexts as (yet another) avenue for installing software, particularly on other atomic/immutable distros. The concept itself isn't new - Flatcar has been utilizing this approach for some time (and has been a significant influence on this Fedora initiative).

The gist would be that it basically allows installing software natively without the traditional rpm-ostree layering method. This approach eliminates both the lengthy installation times and reboot requirements typically associated with that process. Though, it doesn't seem to completely replace the conventional method as it comes with certain limitations (as per the developer):

They can not be used to:

  • install another kernel
  • install kernel modules
  • make changes to the initrd
  • make changes to /etc
  • add udev rules

For those wondering what is actually envisioned to be installed using this method, the software that's already available may shed some light ๐Ÿ˜‰.

In any case, note that this is FAR from its final form. The (relative) complexity currently involved in installing and updating software reflects this clearly; don't expect shiny wrappers that will make all of us blissfully ignorant of the underlying complexity right away ๐Ÿ˜œ.

[โ€“] [email protected] 4 points 3 days ago

I was hoping someone else would step in, but alas...

Look, if your goal is spreading awareness of software freedom, search manipulation isn't the way ๐Ÿ˜…

GNU's approach has become increasingly dogmatic while the ecosystem moves forward. Their stance on firmware blobs and microcode updates creates genuine security problems that projects like coreboot solve with a more balanced approach.

The FSF views software freedom as an absolute, even when it means sacrificing security or functionality - kinda like refusing to use an umbrella because it wasn't made with 100% free-range organic materials... while standing in a thunderstorm

This is why Torvalds rejected GPLv3 for the kernel and why distros are finding better ways to respect user freedom without the absolutism.

People discover valuable ideas when they solve real problems, not when they're forced into terminology debates. If GNU's philosophy is truly compelling, it'll spread on its own merits, no search engine tricks required!

[โ€“] [email protected] 26 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

Why? The likes of Alpine Linux and Chimera Linux don't adhere to GNU/Linux to begin with. Even Ubuntu has intentions to replace the GNU coreutils with alternatives that have been written in Rust.

Don't get me wrong; GNU has been instrumental for enabling the Linux ecosystem to begin with and will probs remain relevant (at least to some capacity) for the foreseeable future. However, I absolutely don't see any reason to be pedantic about this; especially as something like systemd -whether you like it or not- has become a lot more important for what mainstream Linux has become. Yet, nobody in their right minds would even consider to refer to Linux as systemd/Linux (thankfully so).

 

Look, I've only been a Linux user for a couple of years, but if there's one thing I've learned, it's that we're not afraid to tinker. Most of us came from Windows or macOS at some point, ditching the mainstream for better control, privacy, or just to escape the corporate BS. We're the people who choose the harder path when we think it's worth it.

Which is why I find it so damn interesting that atomic distros haven't caught on more. The landscape is incredibly diverse now - from gaming-focused Bazzite to the purely functional philosophy of Guix System. These distros couldn't be more different in their approaches, but they all share this core atomic DNA.

These systems offer some seriously compelling stuff - updates that either work 100% or roll back automatically, no more "oops I bricked my system" moments, better security through immutability, and way fewer update headaches.

So what gives? Why aren't more of us jumping on board? From my conversations and personal experience, I think it boils down to a few things:

Our current setups already work fine. Let's be honest - when you've spent years perfecting your Arch or Debian setup, the thought of learning a whole new paradigm feels exhausting. Why fix what isn't broken, right?

The learning curve seems steep. Yes, you can do pretty much everything on atomic distros that you can on traditional ones, but the how is different. Instead of apt install whatever and editing config files directly, you're suddenly dealing with containers, layering, or declarative configs. It's not necessarily harder, just... different.

The docs can be sparse. Traditional distros have decades of guides, forum posts, and StackExchange answers. Atomic systems? Not nearly as much. When something breaks at 2am, knowing there's a million Google results for your error message is comforting.

I've been thinking about this because Linux has overcome similar hurdles before. Remember when gaming on Linux was basically impossible? Now we have the Steam Deck running an immutable SteamOS (of all things!) and my non-Linux friends are buying them without even realizing they're using Linux. It just works.

So I'm genuinely curious - what's keeping YOU from switching to an atomic distro? Is it specific software you need? Concerns about customization? Just can't be bothered to learn new tricks?

Your answers might actually help developers focus on the right pain points. The atomic approach makes so much sense on paper that I'm convinced it's the future - we just need to figure out what's stopping people from making the jump today.

So what would it actually take to get you to switch? I'm all ears.

 

Look, I've only been a Linux user for a couple of years, but if there's one thing I've learned, it's that we're not afraid to tinker. Most of us came from Windows or macOS at some point, ditching the mainstream for better control, privacy, or just to escape the corporate BS. We're the people who choose the harder path when we think it's worth it.

Which is why I find it so damn interesting that atomic distros haven't caught on more. The landscape is incredibly diverse now - from gaming-focused Bazzite to the purely functional philosophy of Guix System. These distros couldn't be more different in their approaches, but they all share this core atomic DNA.

These systems offer some seriously compelling stuff - updates that either work 100% or roll back automatically, no more "oops I bricked my system" moments, better security through immutability, and way fewer update headaches.

So what gives? Why aren't more of us jumping on board? From my conversations and personal experience, I think it boils down to a few things:

Our current setups already work fine. Let's be honest - when you've spent years perfecting your Arch or Debian setup, the thought of learning a whole new paradigm feels exhausting. Why fix what isn't broken, right?

The learning curve seems steep. Yes, you can do pretty much everything on atomic distros that you can on traditional ones, but the how is different. Instead of apt install whatever and editing config files directly, you're suddenly dealing with containers, layering, or declarative configs. It's not necessarily harder, just... different.

The docs can be sparse. Traditional distros have decades of guides, forum posts, and StackExchange answers. Atomic systems? Not nearly as much. When something breaks at 2am, knowing there's a million Google results for your error message is comforting.

I've been thinking about this because Linux has overcome similar hurdles before. Remember when gaming on Linux was basically impossible? Now we have the Steam Deck running an immutable SteamOS (of all things!) and my non-Linux friends are buying them without even realizing they're using Linux. It just works.

So I'm genuinely curious - what's keeping YOU from switching to an atomic distro? Is it specific software you need? Concerns about customization? Just can't be bothered to learn new tricks?

Your answers might actually help developers focus on the right pain points. The atomic approach makes so much sense on paper that I'm convinced it's the future - we just need to figure out what's stopping people from making the jump today.

So what would it actually take to get you to switch? I'm all ears.