this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2025
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The admin of the third largest Mastodon instance (16k monthly active users) is asking for help to pay rent (mstdn.social)
submitted 6 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
148 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Please, tell me how "paying for hardware costs is enough"...

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Context for people reading this: https://feddit.org/post/2600584

Summary of the answers:

  • lowest number so far: lemmy.ml with 0.03€ per user per month
  • a few others (feddit.uk, lemmy.zip) have around 0.11$ per user per month

Recent discussion I had with rglullis: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40374812/17448295

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 days ago (1 children)

For lemmy.world / mastodon.world including some of the smaller instances we host, it's like 0,06 euro per active user per month. If every active user would pay 2 Euro per year that would be enough to cover hosting costs. If every active user would pay 1 euro per month, I could quit my dayjob and focus on the Fediverse fulltime.

(Sidenote: Stux and I created the non-profit Fedihosting Foundation which owns lemmy.world .. but finances are still separate for his and my instances)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Thank you for providing data for LW, and thank you for your sysadmin work!

While we are talking, there have been occurrences of "power tripping" by some LW mods (e.g. https://lemmy.world/post/23229045/14411568?sort=New) , is there any mechanism to escalate this to you?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Sending e-mail to info at lemmy dot world would be the best option. The team will pick that up.

(By the way: 2 EUR per year would be enough if every active user would donate that but they don't)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Thanks, I might send an email later.

By the way: 2 EUR per year would be enough if every active user would donate that but they don’t

Indeed. Have you thought about promoting this in an announcement post?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

We have done before, but don't do that often, so we don't bother users too much. But we might do again soon, and maybe do a monthly post on the mastodons/sharkeys etc

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Sounds good. db0 started to add flairs, including one for donators, maybe that's something you can consider as well:

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Phrased another way: "I don't think you are allowed to make a living out of the work you do here, so thank you for accepting all this for free".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The list of statements where you have the chance to share your values is still unanswered.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I answered here 5 days ago: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40374812/17470674

Which, for some reason, didn't make it to your instance? https://communick.news/comment/4930027

Both versions of the post also show 106 vs 105 comments, so there seems to be something here

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I specifically said "you can just say agree or disagree", so please don't come with that "It would take too much time".

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Please don't erase nuance from a conversation. Everything isn't yes or no answers.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Please start with the yes or no, the nuances can come after you plainly state your opinion about how much the work of admins is valuable to you.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Are you a child? Who has discussions like this??

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You are right. These types of discussions are beyond silly. But you might not be aware that this back-and-forth between me and Blaze is going for months already and whenever he is asked about how he values the work of admins and FOSS developers, he goes full gas-lighting mode and refuses to answer.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago

Thank you for chiming in

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

No, thanks. I will not engage in any further discussion with you until you explicitly answer those statements.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Then we can stop talking for a while, I have other priorities. For people reading this, here's the content of my last comment.

I’m having trouble parsing this. How exactly do we disagree? You think being an admin is not work? I don’t get it.

Nothing. I am not expecting people to pay nothing there. Whatever it costs me to keep those instances running should be seen as an investment into the ecosystem. The more the ecosystem grows, the bigger the TAM and the more potential revenue my business can make.

You want to run a business.

Other admins are giving their time and energy without expecting to be paid. Ruud below just said it in an "If every active user would pay 1 euro per month, I could quit my dayjob and focus on the Fediverse fulltime", but that seems to be more like hypothetical scenario consideration than actually looking for this. Evidence: lack of recurring posts calling for funding on LW.

The fact that some people do it pro bono does not make it any less valuable. When it is not pro bono, people still need/should/want to be compensated for what they do. Same thing with software development.

That's what I meant with the disagreement. Are you managing your instances pro bono or not? It seems like you are not, and you're the only admin who wants to create a business out of instances.

I don't think I'm going to answer the list of questions now because they require longer answers. Maybe later if I have some time.

Also, we've had that conversation many times. I see the local volunteers run library, or the hiking club, you want to make the system profitable so that admins and developers can make a living out of it.

I’m one self-funded developer who is stubborn enough to run this at a loss for almost 5 years now, and my greatest ambition here would be to maybe get 10-15k customers to pay me $30/year to be able to live with minimal comfort, provide for my family

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/27053532/13176946

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Thanks for making it clear that you are evading giving your straightforward opinion for the following statements:

  • Free Software Developers deserve to be paid for their work, regardless of the "price tag" or license fees.
  • People working in free software should treat their craft as a hobby.
  • The work of system administrators (setting up the systems, ensuring it is secure, managing backups, keeping it up to date, implementing improvements, etc) is valuable and should be properly compensated.
  • If someone is offering to run and manage a server without asking a priori for any form of payment, then this means that all their work is altruistic and they should not be compensated for it.
  • One Individual using a platform and actively promoting it is as important as one developer of the platform.
  • One individual using a platform and actively promoting it is as important as the admin of one server running the platform.
  • If there were no "volunteer run" instances, I would run my own and bear all the costs to operate it.
  • People that are still using the traditional social media networks should know better. If they haven't left yet, they deserve everything bad that happens to them there.
  • It's perfectly acceptable and ethical for any company that provides an utility (water, heating, electricity, phone, internet) to expect a profit.
  • It's perfectly acceptable and ethical for a indie game developer to charge a monthly fee from the users while they are working on it.
  • In a world where the big social media companies (Reddit, Twitter, Facebook) were provably serving the interests of the users and not its investors (no data exploitation, no promotion of corporate agenda, using and promoting open standards for interoperation, no forced walled garden and artificial scarcity) and changed their business model to a simple monthly subscription fee, I would still not use them.
  • In a world where the big social media companies were provably serving the interests of the users and not its investors, I would only use it if I did not have to pay and they relied on other forms of revenue to run their service, e.g, non-invasive advertisements.
[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Sorry for not having answering a 12 questions form as my top priority

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Start with the top 3. A simple "yes" or "no".

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's borderline harassment

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You called me dishonest when I said that you were evading to answer your opinion on the value of the work from admins. I ask you then to make it as clear as possible, to remove any chance of doubt.

You put a bunch of links to past conversations, but you highlight things that are not the main point of the argument and take things out of context, and you have the audacity to claim you are doing it "for context".

Now that I got wise about your games and decided to ask you to provide receipts, you continue to evade the answer and are showing you'd rather play the victim than owning up to your opinions.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's your perspective. People reading our current and past discussions will make their own opinions.

You want to make a living out of the platform, to make a business out of it. I prefer it to be run by volunteers. That's the core difference between our visions. The 12 questions seem a bit much while the difference is quite obvious

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You want to make a living out of the platform, to make a business out of it. I prefer it to be run by volunteers.

This right here is a good example of you taking things out of context and not caring about "nuance" when it is convenient to you

the difference is quite obvious

Is it? Then why is it so problematic for you to say:

  • "No, I do not agree that admins should be compensated for their work"
  • "No, I do not agree that developers of free software should be compensated for their work"
[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Is this comment not true anymore?

I’m one self-funded developer who is stubborn enough to run this at a loss for almost 5 years now, and my greatest ambition here would be to maybe get 10-15k customers to pay me $30/year to be able to live with minimal comfort, provide for my family

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/27053532/13176946

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Are we stuck in a loop? Because it seems that yet again you are bringing things out of context and using it as a shield to avoid giving out your opinion.

You have the time to chase things around and select clips of whatever supports your worldview, but you do not have the time to say "I don't think admins should be compensated for their work".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I'm trying to just end this conversation, but you keep bringing stuff I have to debunk based on your previous statements.

Is the previous comment not true anymore?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I’m trying to just end this conversation

Yeah, you keep trying to end the conversation because you painted yourself to a corner and you refuse to publicly admit that you do not want to support admins and FOSS developers.

Is the previous comment not true anymore?

The whole comment is true. Including the part where I say

I’m honestly tired of this crab mentality. People think it’s a sin to be upfront about their work and how much they value their time. It’s also quite ironic that I can see the huge overlap: those who are always virtue signaling and complaining about bosses who don’t pay enough to their employees are the same ones who refuse to patronize a small independent business

Why couldn't you highlight this part instead?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, you keep trying to end the conversation because you painted yourself to a corner and you refuse to publicly admit that you do not want to support admins and FOSS developers.

No. As stated several times, I do support admins. Now do I think Lemmy admins should be able to make a living out of managing an instance? Based on what we see (Ruud comment stating that not all active users give even 2€ per year to LW, which is the largest instance), it seems unrealistic. Maybe LW starts promoting donations more and get more income soon, that would be nice to see.

I’m honestly tired of this crab mentality.

Sorry to tell you, but you're here with the crabs. And you can try to argue all you want that people should donate more to the admins and the devs, the reality is this is not happening. People might donate a few bucks per month to their instance, but providing enough money so that several sysadmins and programmers make a living out of Lemmy?

those who are always virtue signaling and complaining about bosses who don’t pay enough to their employees are the same ones who refuse to patronize a small independent business

If you can't see the difference between employees of companies providing millions to stakeholders and 50k monthly active users, I don't know what to tell you.

As a general comment, your tone is always very confrontational. If you really want to start making money out of this platform, you might want to ask someone to manage your comments and posts.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I do support admins

Again, paying out to cover hardware costs is not the same as supporting the admins.

Now do I think Lemmy admins should be able to make a living out of managing an instance? Based on what we see (...) it seems unrealistic.

Holy $%&! what a contortionist way to avoid the response! You are sounding like a Monty Python comedy sketch.

I'm not asking what you think is "realistic". I'm asking whether you think admins should be compensated for their work.

Should I try again, or can I just assume that your answer is "no, I do not think that admins need to be compensated for their work." ?

Sorry to tell you, but you’re here with the crabs.

Speak for yourself, then. But at least you are starting to show some honesty and admitting that you rather pull people down to your level instead of acknowledge the value of the work done by admins and developers.

If you can’t see the difference between employees of companies providing millions to stakeholders and 50k monthly active users

You are getting at this exactly backwards.

It's not the employees of tech companies who complain about poor pay. Quite the opposite.

And the reason that Lemmy can not grow past 50k users is because the Fediverse is stuck on a horrible culture where they refuse to even acknowledge that the work of admins and developers is valuable, so those with the skills that could take the Fediverse to the next level are not going to be sacrificing themselves to serve a bunch of people who think they are entitled to free work from others just because they themselves are not able to do it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Again, paying out to cover hardware costs is not the same as supporting the admins.

That's your opinion. Do you really believe that if admins were unhappy with the current situation, they would keep "working for free" instead of shutting down the instances and moving on with their lives? What is stopping an admin unwilling to "give away their labor for free" from doing so?

I’m not asking what you think is “realistic”. I’m asking whether you think admins should be compensated for their work.

The realism is the part you are missing? Do I think that everyone here should be paid for their work? Yes, of course. Sysadmins, developers, moderators, Fediverse advocates, active posters, even commenters deserve something, as every of those roles make the platform alive.

And you know that well as you are usually complaining no one posts on your communities or instances.

But stating that doesn't bring us anywhere. Where is this money we supposedly all deserve going to come from? Nowhere, because there is none. Or actually there is, but just enough to cover the server costs.

acknowledge the value of the work done by admins and developers.

Do you see the Photon, Voyager, Mbin, Piefed developers going around like you treating the whole platform as crabs? Of all of the instance admins, you're the only one having this discourse.

It’s not the employees of tech companies who complain about poor pay. Quite the opposite.

How much money can a 50k community can provide?

And the reason that Lemmy can not grow past 50k users is because the Fediverse is stuck on a horrible culture where they refuse to even acknowledge that the work of admins and developers is valuable, so those with the skills that could take the Fediverse to the next level are not going to be sacrificing themselves to serve a bunch of people who think they are entitled to free work from others just because they themselves are not able to do it.

If the Fediverse is such a horrible culture, why are you still here? Why don't you just create a startup, get some venture capital investments, create your superior social media platform, and then share it with us?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

What is stopping an admin unwilling to "give away their labor for free" from doing so?

Again, you are going at this backwards.

Instead of asking yourself why the network can reach a few million users even when admins are unpaid, you should be wondering how much bigger the network would be if the current users appropriately invested in the ecosystem.

Yes, of course. Sysadmins, developers, moderators, Fediverse advocates, active posters, even commenters deserve something, as every of those roles make the platform alive.

Amazing. By equating the value of the work provided by admins and developers (which you can not do) to the work of "Fediverse advocates and active posters" (which you want to do) you create a false equivalence that you think excuses you from giving full credit to others.

You said you did not respond to the original statements because "it would take too much time". Now, you spent more time trying to find a reasonable justification for your unwillingness to acknowledge the higher value of someone else's contribution and you still didn't give a straight out answer and resort to rhetorical tricks.

Where is this money we supposedly all deserve going to come from?

First: who is "we", here? Are you really implying that you should be getting money by participating?

Second: the money exists. You and many others can pay $10-20 / year for the service being provided to you. The problem is that you (and many others) do not want to acknowledge the value of the work and refuse to contribute beyond "covering the cost of hardware".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Actually, you're right, I don't have time for this. People will read this conversation and make their own minds.

Rhetorical tricks

I did make my position clear many times, you just don't want to understand it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, you made it clear that you:

  • do not value the work of the admins
  • can only see meaning in a "free" social media platform if it means "free of charge"
  • think that a small business provider providing hosting for open source systems is as bad as Big Tech/Corporate/VC funded ones
  • see volunteered work as as opportunity to excuse yourself from giving a meaningful contribution
  • think you should be paid for participating
[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You made clear that you

  • only use the Fediverse as a way to create a business for yourself
  • don't care about this platform with its horrible crab mentality
  • think that a 50k community has enough resources to sustain the full time salaries of dozens of developers and sysadmins
  • discredit community building while you complain that people don't come to your communities or instances
  • think that community moderation and building doesn't add value to the platform

Two can play that game

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)
  • the fact that you think that "creating a business" is bad says more about you than me. And I don't want a business "just for me". I am looking for a sustainable way where many people can work in tech and create technology that does not exploit the users, but this will never happen if the people working are expected to do it from free and still figure out how to make rent.
  • not quite, see above. I don't particularly care about the individuals and I certainly wish to change the prevailing culture. I am not here to have any significant impact on people individually and I am not concerned about "being nice". I do care about finding one platform that can be sustainable and universally accessible, though.
  • no, but I think that the LW users do have the resources to allow Ruud to work full-time on Fediverse stuff, but for some reason there are 18k users there who think it is okay to exploit his free labor.
  • pick a lane: do you think that "community building" is a job, or not? Are you participating here as a service to others or do you out of personal enjoyment? If you want to be paid for it, then state your value and tell me how much you think your work is worth.
[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

Not worth it, we had that conversation several times already