507
"Now find your dance partners and pair off!"
(lemmynsfw.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 Jul 2025
507 points (100.0% liked)
A Comm for Historymemes
3118 readers
831 users here now
A place to share history memes!
Rules:
-
No sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, assorted bigotry, etc.
-
No fascism, atrocity denial, etc.
-
Tag NSFW pics as NSFW.
-
Follow all Lemmy.world rules.
Banner courtesy of @[email protected]
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
That's why spears, not swords, were the weapon of choice in war for centuries.
I think people have a very wrong view of old / ancient warfare because they're used to martial arts, or movies, or other scenarios where it's 1 on 1, not many on many. The result of that is that the most useful weapons of war were ones that would be terrible in a duel or 1 on 1 fight. Adding to the confusion, there were actually people who had the very best armour, the very best duelling weapons, etc. And, they're the ones there are often stories about not because they were the best or most important warriors, but because they were the upper class. They had money and power so people told stories about them.They didn't have to stand in the phalanx. They didn't have to engage unless they wanted to. To a certain extent, they were dead weight that the army carried, although sometimes they could also make a decisive contribution in a battle by causing chaos at the right place at the right time.
Yeah, even in a street fight, most people aren't going to run straight into a group of enemies / opponents. If someone attacks, they'll normally attack someone on the enemy front line, not because those are the easiest targets (they're probably the hardest targets), but because that means they only have to be aware of what's in front of them, not what's to the side or behind them.
You see this with police vs. protesters. That's probably the most realistic depiction of ancient warfare we see today. When the police maintain their lines, they're safe. But, when the police break their lines to go after the protesters, that's often when they get hurt. Similarly, the protesters who tend to get hurt / arrested are the ones who get too close to the police and don't have a buddy who can grab them and pull them away from the cops if the cops try to grab them.
My guess is that a realistic image of a battle is mostly like the top one, but with little pockets where the line failed and a few people got surrounded and are in the process of getting murdered. And, if the line is long enough, it probably wouldn't be straight after contact with the enemy. People would still want to be shoulder-to-shoulder with their nearest neighbours, but over time some parts would shift up, and other parts would shift back. If the line was pushed enough that someone was no longer shoulder-to-shoulder with an ally, that's when their side was in trouble.
A 'normal' spear 6-8 feet long can offer maybe a single additional line of assistance in combat, but only at the expense of reducing the maneuverability of the front line (by the previous line needing to 'crowd' them to strike the enemy). Even in the extremely tightly-packed and not-very-manueverable Greek phalanx, which is not really typical of spear-dominated warfare throughout most of history, and reliant on intense drilling, only two ranks could engage at a time.
Ease of use, reach in formation combat, and cheapness of manufacture are the bigger contributors. Even four feet of striking distance (making some allowance for the grip position with one hand) is longer than most swords, putting an enemy at a disadvantage in that they need to approach closer than you need to in order to get a good hit in.
The pikes depicted in that drawing are typical of Macedonian phalanxes, which were revolutionary and steamrolled most the known world inside of 100 years because of how fantastic it was to suddenly be able to employ 3-5 ranks of troops per file engaged, both because of the style of fighting (holding the sarissa with two hands, even tighter formation, reduced importance of the shield) and the length of the sarissa itself (typically 2-3 times longer than a 'normal' dory spear).
I would argue against this - the individual 'noble' duelists of this sort often had outsized effect on the battle, not just sometimes, but as a matter of course before strong traditions of formation combat developed. In most battles, most troops on both sides will not cause even a single casualty, at least not until one side or the other routs. The performance of such champions and skirmishers is not only severe on morale, but also in terms of materially reducing the enemy's ability to resist - in battles where one side or the other manages to withdraw in orderly fashion, you often see extremely low casualty rates even on the losing side, to the tune of 1%-2% of irrecoverables. In systems of warfare reliant on champions and 'heroic' skirmishers over intensely-drilled or motivated meat-grinder clashes, the vast majority of those casualties would be the result of those champions clashing, eliminating each other, or picking off enemy draff whose primary motivation is to cluster together, provide a screen for the champions, and hopefully not get killed.
On the other hand, the fact that a well-drilled formation is all-but-immune to such champions on foot (as no amount of skill or equipment will save you from being mobbed to death by basically-armed troops who outnumber you, locally, 5-1 or more and are aggressive enough to use that numerical advantage) means that such systems tend to fade away as states and organized military systems become more established.
Everything else you said I agree with, especially the comparison of police v. protesters. Especially relevant in tribal warfare wherein captures and ransoms remain important - I've seen that very police-protesters comparison before in discussions of tribal captures in the heat of battle, where small groups or 'champions' nab an enemy who gets too bold or too close and squirrel them away behind the shield wall.