this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2023
633 points (99.8% liked)

politics

24126 readers
3315 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 83 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Imagine thinking that Trump is in any way, shape, or form, better for you and your family than Biden.

Conservatives and Republicans: hate working class people, hate people that rent, hate minorities including women, want to privatize every last piece of American society so you'll have to subscribe to your alarm clock and appliances.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's the illusion the maga crowd clings to. They think the economy was better under Trump and they think that relates to prosperity for them. The truth is that the economy really only indicates how the market is for the wealthy. But they don't see that. Trump, like nearly all GOP, is fully prepared to strip mine this nation of all resources possible, which would me amazing for the economy. 🙄

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Trump prints trillions of dollars. Loses election, then blames biden for fixing his mistake.

It's fucked..

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Welcome to every election cycle since Regan. Repubs fuck the economy and blame the Dems for trying to fix it.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I generally agree except I think Bidens secretary of treasury screwed the pooch by not borrowing more longer term debt at low interest rates. So now we're paying 1T per year in interest.

The whole system is completely fucked right now.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I don't understand how they can possibly put Biden forward again. He's well past losing his marbles. Way too old to run imo. It's disgraceful.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Isn't Trump in the same boat? Trump's 77, Biden's 81. One may easily argue they're both much too old to be running.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 years ago

Neither of them represents an acceptable choice to lead a party. That's kind of my point.

If these are the only two viable candidates then something is completely broken and needs to change.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

That's what we get with a two party system. The parties don't really need to compete through better policy, simply spending more and being marginally less bad in the eyes of the voters on your side of the line is enough of a strategy for them.

If 3rd parties were viable, democrats would actually have to compete in the ways that matter, and we wouldn't see shitty politicians like Biden as much.

But we're not going to get that until election reform (STAR & Approval voting, ban on money in politics, etc) happens.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Gaetz talked of banning money in politics. This could have been an easy win for Dems by taking him up on writing that legislation. Interesting that they chose not to pursue the one issue everyone in the US agrees on.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago (3 children)

So I'm supposed to vote for the genocide supplier?

want to privatize every last piece of American society

And Democrats are not doing this?

[–] [email protected] 32 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Like it or not we are stuck with a two party system. As fucking awful as Biden is, and he is, Biden is the lesser of two evils by far. And that applies to democrats/republicans as a whole.

Both parties/candidates are to some degree cool with genocide and privatization, but only one of the two stands out as the worst, and the worst by a lot.

Don't like it? Vote for local candidates/congressional candidates in primaries that will fix the two party problem. But in the mean time the better presidential option will be anything with a D next to their name.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago (8 children)

I will not vote for the party of genocide supply. Aka the dems.

Local candidates are not going fix the two party system. That's a national issue.

I don't know the solution, but buying into the Dems bullshit "lesser of Two evils" AGAIN is not it.

Have fun being the same chump you were 8 years ago.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You want to ever vote again? Then take a long, hard look at what each party is trying to do about voting rights. If you want to stop genocide, a Republican in office is the worst-case scenario for you; and there is a non-zero chance that voting against Democrats in 2024 means that 2024 will be our last real election ever, after which the genocide would come across the ocean.

Think about the worst case scenarios here—in case of a blue wave, the worst case is another four years of lackluster governance and pretending to keep our hands clean of the worst stuff happening in the world, while winking at corporate greed and doing nothing about climate change. Not a great outcome.

In case of a red wave, we don't have to guess about the worst case, because Trump is telling us what he'll do: make anything but Christianity illegal, militarize the borders to turn away refugees, curtail the first amendment, hand Ukraine over to Russia, help Israel glass Palestine, make it harder (impossible if he can manage it) for people to vote against him, try to get an extra four years as penance for what he sees as a "stolen" election, retaliate against anyone trying to hold him accountable for his crimes, roll back environmental protections that will make climate change irreversible, nominate perhaps another SCOTUS justice who's even more unhinged than the other three he installed, and vague threats of violence toward everyone who isn't straight and cis. That is all stuff that he has promised to do at his rallies. And all of that isn't even touching on the financial disaster that his tax policies actually unleashed between 2016-2020, and the regular horror of mass shootings and white supremacy that goes up under every pro-gun president, but Trump in particular. Not a survivable outcome.

This isn't a normal election. Giving Trump (or, at this point, any Republican) a chance is off the table. He's shown us and told us what he'll do if he gets the White House again. If you want to vote third party to send a message, you have to contend with the possibility that there won't be anyone left to hear it in 2028. Yes, people's lives are on the line. So don't let Republicans have the chance to step across that line.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Replace evey year you listed with 2012.

And replace trump with George w Bush.

These were the same arguments being made by Dems back then. I voted. And we still have genocide supply. The genocide we have now is unacceptable. Just because there is potential for it to get worse don't mean I should accept they situation we have now.

Biden cut check to Israel with a smile on his face. So will the republican party and so will future democrats. None of them will be getting my vote.

You're a genocide apologist when you vote blue.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's not what they said in 2012 (a year when Bush wasn't even on the ballot, by the way). I've been alive for ten presidential cycles, and I've never seen it this bad before. I've never seen a candidate with such blatant disregard for democracy, or voters who are so blithe about tossing away their voting rights.

But even if they said it then, it doesn't preclude it from being true now. Things can get worse over time. A threat narrowly defeated in one year doesn't prevent that threat from gaining power and causing more problems a decade later, and the GOP has undoubtedly gotten worse over the last thirty years.

Ad hominem nonsense aside, your comment would've sounded somewhat reasonable in 1996, but in 2023 I don't think it is. If you see the danger but run the other way, aren't you treating the many more lives that would be lost as a result of a second Trump presidency with the same clinical disconnection that the Democrats are treating the Palestinian lives lost with each shipment of arms?

It's literally the trolley problem. You want to not be the one pulling the lever. That's fine. But the point of the trolley problem is that there's not a morally correct answer. It's a terrible situation, and there's no right way to respond; but lambasting others on the internet for their choice is definitely the wrong way.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's not what they said in 2012 (a year when Bush wasn't even on the ballot, by the way).

You are right it was in 2000. That was a long time ago.

Anyways here's an article talking about black voters are " choosing the lesser of two evils" when voting for Gore. Remember how that turned out?

If I remember correctly gore got more votes but Bush still won because his brother was the governor of Florida or something...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/10/29/some-black-voters-view-gore-as-the-lesser-of-two-evils/875026c6-d3d7-4076-ae3d-db858cb0270b/

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thinking that abstaining to vote washes your hands of association is not correct. Your abstention counts as a vote for the winning party, whether you like it or not.

Choosing to continue to participate in the social fabric is supporting the choices made much the same as casting a vote. You're paying taxes, you're collecting incentives, you're participating in the economy, you're enabling the growth of GDP.

By your own logic, assuming you're an American citizen and not just a troll, you're also a genocide apologist who's enabling whatever party wins.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I will not vote for the party of genocide supply. Aka the dems.

They're both supporting the ongoing genocide. This isn't helpful for deciding who to vote for.

Local candidates are not going fix the two party system. That’s a national issue.

Which is why I specified local/congressional. It's going to take all levels of government to unfuck us from a two party system.

I don’t know the solution, but buying into the Dems bullshit “lesser of Two evils” AGAIN is not it.

Only one of these choices is actively trying to turn our country into a theocratic hell hole.

The "lesser of two evils" is fucking awful, but it's true.

Have fun being the same chump you were 8 years ago.

If you can't talk about politics without resorting to personal insults then you must know how weak your argument is.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago (4 children)

They're both supporting the ongoing genocide. This isn't helpful for deciding who to vote for.

You are the one deciding between the two only, not me. I will vote for a candidate that has a platform I can support and nothing else.

It's going to take all levels of government to unfuck us from a two party system.

The dems continue to get elected because of the Two party system. They aren't going to change it.

Let me know when it does tho....

Only one of these choices is actively trying to turn our country into a theocratic hell hole.

Yes, and the other will happily participate in genocide, be unable to create real change in Any area I care about and then pretend they are the party of moral superiority.

You vote blue you will still have red on your hands.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I will vote for a candidate that has a platform I can support and nothing else.

And in doing so you'll waste your vote, allowing the worst possible option (Trump) to get voted in.

The dems continue to get elected because of the Two party system. They aren’t going to change it.

Establishment democrats won't let it happen, but they can't do shit if they don't get elected, and actually good candidates get elected instead.

Which means all levels of government are involved. And this issue needs to be fought in the primaries as well.

You vote blue you will still have red on your hands.

There will be red on everyone's hands no matter what. No matter who we choose, our tax dollars are going to genocide.

The least we can do, the bare fucking minimum is to reduce the amount of red.

You'll have just as much red on your hands as I do. But the difference is that you're willing to let it be more red.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Oh get the fuck outta here, that's not the only issue at stake

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago (3 children)

The GOP also continues to get elected because of the two party system. There's a much better shot at taking over the Democratic party to force reform through than will ever happen with the GOP. I want to vote third party, but I'm not going to pretend that it's safe to do so yet at the level of president.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The presidential race is the LAST place you should be making your stand. It's like you want to skip all the early levels of the game (local and state elections) and jump straight to the final boss without realising you won't win this game by doing that.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I refuse to play rigged games. And so should you.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Have fun having an even more genocidal Trump presidency then, idiot. Third parties can't win mathematically.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago (3 children)

What if everybody took the same stance as me?

What if all the people telling me to vote lesser of two evils, voted independent?

Does the math line up then?

Maybe your the problem. Have you ever considered that?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago

If everyone did that we would have a solution.

The reality is that with the current balance of power that will never happen.

It not that I don't wish for it to happen, but even if two people here agree there's no way we are going to take 70 million votes away from each party equally to guarantee neither can beat the third party.

We have one path: get more young people who aren't batshit crazy into both the Senate and the House until we can force campaign finance reform, ban all of the should-be-illegal lobbying, force a voting system chance, and ban gerrymandering. Nothing else is going to beat the corporate government.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago

Not all of us live in ImaginationLand, unfortunately.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You've been attacking the Dems for this, but why do you believe the Republicans will do differently? Or were you talking about independent?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I don't believe repubs will be better. I just consider them two parts of a single flawed system.

By voting for either of them you support both parties.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Not sure if this is enlightened centrism or not but avoiding voting all together doesn't solve anything either because one of the 2 will be elected regardless.

In the US there are only 2 possible winners, a democrat or a republican. Not voting or voting 3rd party is the same as throwing your vote in the trash because of the way the US system works.

So your choice if you want to change something is to vote for the one that has the highest chance of working towards your goals, and that is a democrat, even if almost everything they currently do is awful. Because if a republican wins, your concerns aren't even going to get into ear reach of them.

Either participate and vote to try to change something or accept that you're discarding your already limited political power by taking this moral stance, and in the process also making the problems you're concerned about worse.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (3 children)

because one of the 2 will be elected regardless

What if all the people chanting better than trump voted independent?

What if you guys did something other than the same thing we always do?

Either participate and vote to try to change something or accept that you're discarding your already limited political power by taking this moral stance, and in the process also making the problems you're concerned about worse.

Voting blue is not voting for change its voting for "not worse". And even then it will still get worse under dems You're defending this system by continuing to buy into it.

I voted blue every time I voted, and we still have genocide supply. Its unacceptable, and thus I will not accept it.

Have fun being a genocide apologist.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Team A wins: genocide Team B wins: genocide

Vote A, B, or neither?

Vote A: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.

Vote B: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.

Vote neither: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.

By not voting, or voting third party, the outcome is still genocide. You're still a part of the system.

By telling us how bad it is to vote because of this, you're ignoring every other issue. Some of them human rights.

Congrats, you're making the USA a worse place.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (8 children)

By voting for either of them you support both parties.

Voting for one of them is our only choice if we wish to influence the course of our country.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago

Trump would dump multiple times the amount of money Biden is into Israel, and he'd pivot us to backing Russia in the extermination of Ukraine. Assuming he doesn't start another genocide himself, he will absolutely make the situation worse.

Biden may have no shame, but Trump is constantly talking about doing even worse. Pretending risking him in office would be better is a dangerous delusion.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago

The problem with the trump administration is that people picked him thinking they were making the same exact decision you're making, and look where it took us.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 years ago

Donald would send significantly more funds for that genocide and would help Russia with their genocide in the Ukraine. So doing some basic room temperature IQ thinking I'm going to pick the less genocidal option.

The USA is going to back a genocide regardless of your opinions. Learn how dirty your hands are and then make decisions that lessen the dirt in the future rather than digging straight into the shittiest option by trying to appear righteous.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

And you think the Dems don't? Don't mistake pandering for genuine concern.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Ah yes, the obligatory "the other guy is worse" post. We know the other guy is worse. That doesn't mean democrats shouldn't pick better candidates.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Well besides being old he's not really doing so bad tbh. Who else would you put up for election? Jon Stewart?

load more comments (3 replies)