547
Mass Grave in Gaza Points to “Execution-Style” Killings by Israeli Forces
(www.democracynow.org)
this post was submitted on 02 Feb 2024
547 points (100.0% liked)
World News
48141 readers
2005 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News [email protected]
Politics [email protected]
World Politics [email protected]
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I don't deny that a genocide was attempted on 10/7. I also believe that Israel has the right to ensure it's security, especially if the Palestinian public refuses to do so themselves. You might say "But Palestinians have no responsibility to do so" and you'd be wrong. 80 years of terrorism against the Israeli people means that Palestinians have a responsibility to stop the violence.
Until they do, Israel must take actions to defend itself. If you have suggestions for how this should be done, I'm all ears.
Are Palestinians entitled to defend themselves?
Are Jews?
Of course, but this isn’t that. This is about stealing more land and ethnically cleansing it to make way for settlers. You aren’t doing self defense on stolen land.
No, the war started on Oct. 7th. The war is in response to terrorism on the part of Hamas.
You're just pulling a DARVO here.
You can’t just pick a date and ignore decades of history before that because it doesn’t support your case. The latest one could argue this conflict started was 1948, but Zionist terrorists had been operating in Palestine for decades at that point.
So jews returning to their homeland is itself what justifies oct. 7?
Yeah, that's pure antisemitism.
It’s not that Jews immigrated to their “homeland”, it’s that they are ethnically cleansing the people who have called that land home for thousands of years. Palestine could have been a modern pluralistic nation that included Jews, but instead zionists chose genocide to try and make a country for only Jewish people. That’s why this conflict is where it is today, Palestinians want some of their land back that was stolen in living memory (as opposed to 2000 years ago), but Israel really wants beachside condos and there are people they consider sub-human in their way.
Are you suggesting that the genocide didn't start with the Oct. 7 war but has been going on the whole time as part of the return process?
Yeah, dude, that's just antisemitism.
The genocide started when settlers began attacking Palestinians towns to expel them from their land to make way for more settlers. Settlers had been there for decades before at that point without committing genocide. It’s the displacing and killing that’s the problem, not the immigration. It’s got nothing to do with the fact that they’re Jewish either, calling it antisemitism is using past atrocities against Jewish people to justify or deflect from the currently ongoing genocide.
Give me a specific date of when you are claiming the genocide started so I know how long the conspiracy you are alleging has been happening.
I believe you previously stated 1948. Are you suggesting a continuous 80 year genocide?
Forgive me, but I think your argument works better if you are claiming the genocide began Oct. 8th and is caused by trauma. I think that is what most people on your side are claiming to believe and I think that is much stronger than your position.
Do you wish to clarify your position?
Is this defending themselves?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Yeah, that’s a list of Palestinians attacking invaders/colonizers in Palestine. Palestinians defending themselves in Palestine is unambiguously self defense. The tactics aren’t preferable, but I’m in no position to tell any person suffering under a brutal occupation that their fight for self determination is in some way invalid.
Cool, you say that Israel is colonizers and Palestine is defending themselves.
I'll say that Gazans are terrorists and Israel is ensuring it's security. Israelis defending themselves after an invasion of their country is unambiguously self-defense. Their tactics aren't preferable, but I'm in no position to tell someone who is under attack how to defend themselves.
Unfortunately none of this solves problems for actual civilians in the conflict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza and displaced Israelis that had been living in Gaza since the 1940s because of two decades of terror bombings of busses in Israel.
I vehemently oppose the use of violence to achieve political goals in all forms.
I would suggest educating yourself on this conflict and the historical reasons for the state of the conflict today.
Unfortunate to not care about Israeli civilians being displaced, how am I supposed to care about Palestinians being displaced then?
Pretty sure it's illegal to slaughter thousands of civilians on 10/7. Hard to have sympathy.
Completely agree. Very unfortunate that so many Israelis were forcibly displaced during the disengagement from Gaza in 2005. Thank you for considering their plight.
Except Gaza shares a border with Egypt that Israel was not controlling before the Oct. 7 war and I'm not sure if they are controlling it now.
Israel is preventing Palestinians from overthrowing Hamas? Why would that be true and what evidence of that claim do you have?
You can't defend people and strip them of all agency at the same time.
So to the best of your knowledge, there has not been a single uprising attempt against Hamas, and the Jews in Israel are to blame?
Wow.
So your argument is essentially that the Jews are to blame for terrorist actions against them and the terrorists themselves should not be held accountable because the Jews won't allow it...
I'm not sure if you personally are an antisemite but the people telling you this nonsense clearly are and I think you should start considering how these arguments come across to people who aren't antisemites.
I'm not the one treating Palestinians like terrorists, you are. You are the one claiming they support terrorism against Israel because Israel forced them into it.
That's nonsense and you don't believe that.
...Gaza has had 15 years to try and Mount an offensive against Hamas.
Israel is attacked with a bombing essentially weekly over the last near 2 decades. Where are the supplies for those coming from?
Is Qatar possibly the answer?
Why aren't their supplies coming in through the same route as the weapons?
If the terrorists are getting their needs met while the people aren't, isn't that the fault of Hamas?
So the terrorists are Hamas, who are also the elected government of Palestine.
So if you are stating that Hamas in.fact does have trade routes established with their neighbors, you have to concede that Israel is not fully to blame here.
Sadly? I don't think you are willing to let yourself be capable of admitting that.
It gets even worse, because it means they don't have great access to information either.
There was a video soon after Oct 7 that showed Palestinians celebrating in the streets. They hadn't been told about the civilian deaths or kidnappings though, only that a prison had been liberated. And that context wasn't shown alongside their celebrations when Israelis saw it.
The suppression of information has led to misunderstandings that perpetuate the hate and the war. Just as Netanyahu wants, I suspect.
You got your sides mixed up, it's been 80 years of terrorism, subjugation, blockades, land grabs, against the Palestinian people, and the Palestinians have a right to ensure their security. Have you considered why Israel needs to 'defend itself'? Why do you think Palestinian people have been fighting for 80 years?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
TL:DR: Israel isn't defending itself by committing a genocide against a population they've subjugated.
There are a series of issues with this...
Genocide isn't an act of defence - it's an attempt to completely exterminate a group of people, and is the greatest act of aggression a group could possibly commit.
The response we're seeing is in no way proportionate, and causing a completely unacceptable level of civilian casualties (10k+ children alone in response to 1,200 total killed according to Israeli counts).
Israel have killed more Palestinians than the total number of Hamas members in existence with zero indication of progress, and no sign of stopping.
Israel have maintained Palestine in conditions described by the UN as an open air concentration camp, and have placed severe apartheid restrictions on Palestinians for years.
Israel have killed orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas have killed Israelis.
Israel funded the rise of Hamas (who were no less violent then) over the secular moderates - as confirmed by both IDF leadership at the time she Arafat. I see no reason for them to do this other than to manufacture pretext for the genocide while maintaining US support.
Palestinians seem to have a lot more to "defend themselves" against - between the numbers killed and displaced and the very restrictive living conditions they're subjected to.
Israeli leadership have said pretty plainly and repeatedly that they intend to exterminate Palestinians - if all Palestinians were to lay down arms and submit to the apartheid conditions, movement restrictions, and conditions we've seen over the past decade, the well funded nuclear power with modern military simply won't stop.
What makes Israel's actions self-defence while Hamas's lesser actions are not?
No legitimate person is accusing Israel of extermination. My impression is most of you are accusing Israel of "cultural genocide" and not actual extermination. Am I wrong on that?
A disproprortionate response in war is not in the definition of genocide. Is your argument that Israel is committing war crimes or that they are specifically doing genocide, and are you aware that there is a legal difference?
How do you define progress when fighting a terrorist cell? Are you using the same rubric that the IDF is or are you defining progress differently? This point feels like it weakens your argument.
I would need to see the direct quote you reference. And seeing that Israel left Gaza in 2005, apartheid is a dishonest word to use in reference here. West Bank, sure, but I believe the argument made is that Israelis are genociding Gaza's, not those currently in.the West Bank. If the rhetoric has changed, please inform me.
Point 5 is just point 2 repeated. Please reference that.
Hamas began as a human rights charity. Can you establish that Israel paid Hamas to attack Israel or is that conjecture? Are you also claiming that it's the Israeli's who support Hamas and not the Palestinian people? If so, doesn't it make sense for the Palestinians to turn over the Israeli sleeper agents who govern them to the international courts as evidence of genocide? As we can see, this point, if what you are trying to make, is easily disproven by the fact that the Palestinians are not bringing down Hamas themselves.
Having a lot to work against doesn't make you the victim of genocide. This point brings nothing to your argumentt.
Please provide the direct quotations, not reporting of the quotations. This point you might be correct on, but the ones I have seen were grossly mistranslated and the correct translations were clearly in reference to Hamas fighters, not all Palestinians.
I didn't write this to attack, but because I think your post deserved a response instead of possibly getting lost.
I disagree with point 2, or maybe it needs to be clarified?
A disproportionate response is a war crime (not genocide) but deaths each side isn't the measure of proportionality - neither is strength, tech, economic strength.
Proportionality is using only as much force as necessary to eliminate the threat and minimize civilian casualties. I haven't seen the intel reports of the attacks on civilian structures that hamas are using, but proportional response does need to be called into question.
I think everybody is willing to have a conversation on the imbalance of power and whether Israel can show more restraint.
The people screaming genocide aren't allowing us to have that conversation unless it is on their terms.
I would call this genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
I'm sure you'd call Hamas's actions a genocide, but based on what definition or metric?
No differences between Israel and the Nazis?
No difference between Israel's self-defence and Hamas's attacks?
Godwin's law states that you have lost the argument/credibility.
Your inability to point to a meaningful distinction between those you're supporting and literal Nazis or provide a consistent definition of genocide (because you can't manufacture one that describes Hamas without admitting Israel is committing one) says far more than Godwin's law ever will.