this post was submitted on 02 Feb 2024
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More video and eyewitness info on Al Jazeera so far

Also reported on Common Dreams and Middle East Eye.

I haven't found any reports of any independent investigations yet, hopefully they are underway

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[–] [email protected] 80 points 1 year ago (4 children)

A question for the genocide deniers that'll pop into this thread to spout their monstrous nonsense...

Can you point to a way in which the actions, policies, or rhetoric of the Israeli government meaningfully differs from those of Novemberpogrome-era (Krystalnacht-era) Nazi Germany?

This isn't pointed at any individual, so I'm not even putting you on the spot - this is an opportunity for you to bring your best answers.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can you point to a way in which the actions, policies, or rhetoric of the Israeli government meaningfully differs from those of Novemberpogrome-era (Krystalnacht-era) Nazi Germany?

They spoke German.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well that... that... that changes everything!

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I have realized a while ago that there’s no point in arguing or discussing with genocide-deniers, pro-Israel and pro-zionists.

They will write the most delusional things, deny every evidence there’s and come up with the most delusional things to defend the Israeli-Government.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

I think they're delusional enough that there's value in giving them the space to lay that delusion out for all to see. They're one of the best arguments against themselves.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

Taking everything here as fact no person would deny it. But misinformation and agendas are everywhere.

Looking into the article:

  • comment of one civilian (not named)

  • witnesses decomposing bodies in an area of mass conflict

  • potentially/probably bound and/or gagged

  • assumed to be civilians

  • instantly placed blame on one group they are heavily biased against

  • blaming Israel is nearly half the article

No investigation on who they are, how they were killed, who killed them or collaborated from multiple sources. These could be innocent Palestine civilians, executed Israeli hostages, executed POW from either side, soldiers killed in conflict and dumped in one spot with torn clothes, soldiers tied up to transport easier.

Democracynow.org is a heavily left leaning publication (could be irrelevantbut not balanced), cant find anything on accuracy, owned by non profits. Not published by a well known and accurate source. Assigned blame on Israel without any investigation (this is the big red flag for me).

This is a very vague article, with little backing and authority behind it. If it is true, it should absolutely be investigated and considered as a crime against humanity - but this looks like a piece with poor reporting and a heavy agenda behind it.

And before anyone calls me a genocide denier - take a step back and look at who writes the articles you read and what their agenda is. This conflict has soo much propaganda from both sides and uninformed and uneducated opinions it horrendous. My list of what is missing is longer than the article.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Al Jazeera has more detailed eye witnesses statement's and video about the mass grave found. Independent investigations are being called for but this is breaking news so that could take some time

Also reported on Common Dreams and Middle East Eye.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The first paragraph of the Al Jazeera article shows the biggest difference in the quality of reporting

  • mass grave found

  • calling for investigations

  • Palestine authorities blame Israel.

This is the big concern I have about the original article - instantly called it executions of civilians, Israel did it. AL stated the facts, and you said it yourself - breaking news and investigation takes time, so why is it ok to scream genocide and Israeli did it? I can guarantee you Democracynow won't release a massive recant of its statenents and apologize if it was wrong - it just put out the fastest article it could that stired up the most anger.

I got downvoted to shit because because I believe in waiting for the evidence and can see there is a clear bias in the article.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

First article discusses a killing of 11 civilians, and other isolated events. Each individual one absolutely needs to be investigated and those responsible held to account but its not genocide.

Second discusses the effects on the elderly population and how nearly 1% of those over 60 have been killed - most killed by rubble. Again, not genocide. It sucks but civilians do die in war - those that were killed in cold blood do need justice however.

Third one discusses the changes in human rights over the last year (actually a really good read), how war crimes have been committed by both sides. Mentions numerous crimes against civilians, including events of executions. Like the first - those should be held to account but its not genocide... or if it is its a pretty crap attempt.

Is there precident that Israel could have done this - yes.

Is there also precident that Hamas could have done this - yes.

Thanks for the links by the way - pretty accurate and unbiased reporting. They are discussing that there are human rights violations happening from both side in this conflict, and hopefully international pressures will bring those responsible to account - but its not genocide. Happy to change mind as new evidence comes to account.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Those articles all show execution style killings Israel has done in this war, reported by human rights orgs. Hamas has done public executions before 2015/2007 and 2022 which while equally abhorrent isn't quite the same as Israel has been doing to Palestinians. So I don't think they are equally likely, to me it seems Israel is a lot more likely due to the circumstances here.

But I am grateful that you are willing to discuss in a civil manner and interested in credible sources. That's not as common as it should be, insults and sourceless claims should be left to reddit imo lol.

As for genocide, the ICJ case is very detailed. I'll link what I have found here:

ICJ Ruling archived here

Experts on Genocide at US Court on the issue

800+ Legal Scholars on International Law and Genocide on whether it amounts to genocide

5 more experts on the subject

Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide

GDF has a pretty good video on it imo

Also linking this Foreign Affairs article which is quite good on the topic of a one state solution archived here

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

It's insane how infested Lemmy is with anti-Western shills stirring the pot against the West in any way they can. My fiancee is Jewish but I'm not religious so we have debates/arguments about the war, but it's clear here that any comment not "Israel is literally Satan" is downvoted to hell.

Don't get me wrong it was bad on Reddit but Lemmy is on another level.

That's a problem with decentralization that needs to be solved because at the moment the only tools to deal with any of the tens or hundreds of Lemmy instances plagued by propaganda is to defederate them (on the Admin side) or block each individual user/server/sub (on the User side).

At least with centralized services you can detect and (shadow)ban obvious bot activity quite easily. As far as I know of Lemmy infrastructure, your IP/User-Agent/other identifying metadata only goes as far as the server you're registered to.

Running a popular Lemmy server is probably a nice way to collect some juicy 0days from governments though, if you have the skillset.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

What does yours and your fiance's religious differences have to do with it? Many Jewish people think the Israeli state is violent and illegitimate. There maybe some shills here, but is it possible that there are just more users aware of the history than you are used to? A lot of users are here because they don't buy into the Western propaganda that inundates Reddit and most English media, not that we are anti-west shills. There are many perspectives in the world outside of the US and western countries, millions of people are in agreement in their desire for Palestinian freedom and the end of Israeli state genocide.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks for the AJ link, genuinely. That as good as confirms it.

Christ, I'm speechless.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

AJ confirms these people were found, and Palestine blames Israel.

It doesn't confirm who did it or who they were, and saying investigation is needed.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (99 children)

Democracy Now have a left-wing bias, but are a factual source. . That said, I'm not here to defend them - nor do I have much interest in this particular article or event.

I was asking about the broader situation, action, policy and rhetoric. My views are based more on the history of the situation, the casualty counts, reporting from the likes of AP and Reuters, UN oversight, and significantly, the words of the Israeli leadership themselves. If nothing else, when a political leader tells you they want to exterminate a group they've been keeping in brutal conditions, then kills tens of thousands of them, I tend to believe them.

I'm not going to call you a genocide denier, but I will ask you - are you denying the genocide, and if so, on what grounds. If you have any thoughts on the differentiation from the Nazis of that era, I'd like to hear those too.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (16 children)

There comes a time when you realize putting in the work to be logical and consistent means nothing to fanatics. They either have no idea what words mean, or they don't care, so keeping it short is just as good.

They don't care that making incredulous claims destroys their credibility. It's basically the Trump tactic of inundation the headlines with bullsht hoping something sticks.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you are asking for a devil's advocate argument, we could start with the fact that the Jews weren't exactly known for detaining, torturing, and mass executing their own.

Hamas in 2014 allegedly tortured and killed 23 Palestinians under the cover of the Gaza conflict then by Amnesty.

That's not the only time they've executed Palestinians for alleged "collaboration."

You also have the fact that the Jews didn't torture and kill hundreds of German civilians including women and infants to kick off a retaliation.

While I think Likud show a disguising disregard for civilian life and suspect a number of their party would like to carry out a one sided genocide, I also think the "it's the same thing as the Holocaust" is a pretty gross statement.

It's also probably prudent to not jump to conclusions in what's actually taking place during the fog of war. I strongly suspect Israel is committing war crimes under the current administration, but I also remember the 2008 Goldstone report where they were accused of doing so after not participating in the process at all and then years later the person spearheading that inquiry said that had they known at the time the information they learned since, they would have had a different position towards the Israeli operations.

Time has a way of revealing a lot of details that are lost in the moment, there's probably unprecedented propaganda on both sides of this conflict, and while we should err on the side of humanitarian concerns in directing foreign policy and negotiations, the process of investigating allegations is extremely important.

But to be frank, the knee jerk "this is identical to Nazi Germany killing the Jews" is ignorant as shit. You can't just ignore the existence of Hamas and the fact it controls the region with its own war crimes (which, as has been the case for ISIS/ISIL and al-Queda, are often directed at their own dissidents with greater scope and violence than foreigners).

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

If you're going to play devil's advocate at least know the facts. There WERE Jewish militant groups that resisted the Nazis. The oppressed are justified to fight back.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

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[–] [email protected] 70 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Some of the victims were blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs with zip ties.

There were witness statements of mass executions committed by the IDF 2 weeks ago, now actual evidence is found and being shown.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Looked into the presenter of this video (Middle East Eye)

  • heavy Palestine bias

  • owners not known

  • 0 Israeli perspective

  • (edit after chatting with poster - two week old video edited for this event)

I've gone through the last 8 hours of Al Jazeera links - no mention of this article. The review from the last 24 hours does not mention this link. Do you have an Al Jazeera, BBC, or AP link to this video, because right now it looks fabricated with the AJ logo.

The AJ link you posted is a great article- bodies found, likely bound and executed, investigating ongoing, Palestine blames Israel.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I checked and it seems like they reposed a 2 weeks old AJ video cutting out some of their footage.

https://youtu.be/E4PtbgpBu9E

So it's less recent than I thought, but still relevant. First witness statements of mass IDF executions were ~2 months ago iirc (don't quote me on that I might be 2 weeks off)

Mee is a respectable news source. One sided for sure but they're not making stuff up.

Israel doesn't get covered much on the Arab side, they're afraid to quote lies from the IDF and tarnish their reputation of factually being factual. Unlike mostly western propaganda outlets like NYT which will happily verbatim quote every lie the IDF tells them even when it's already debunked. 40 beheaded hospital tunnels. You know the drill.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago

With how often we spar, I feel it's worth mentioning that I fully agree with you here. There's enough substantial evidence. This is horrific.

Between this and the IDF disguising itself as civilians and doctors to kill targets in a hospital, it's fairly clear that the organization needs to completely disband as part of any peace agreement.

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The country genociding people have to make mass graves from executing civilians? Say it ain't so.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Store all this data to tell accurate histories.

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago

When people try to tell you conservatives (including neoliberals) aren't that bad, just point to this genocide.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Israel is committing genocide it's plain to see and the world watches on....

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago

It's sad, it's an atrocity, it's unsurprising.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A lot of this really mirroring the Bosnian genocide which was only 25 years ago

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

Mirroring the f*cking holocaust

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The fact this is still news in 2024 is beyond stupid.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This has been going on for almost 70yrs, it’s just that they have now acknowledged and embraced it as well

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Netanyahu wasin dire straights when this kicked off. War is good for those in power, shit is extremely reminiscent to Bush's position before 9/11. Of course it's being embraced.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Right? No human could possibly find genocide to be abhorrent - it must be the bots.

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