378
'I Think We Should Kill 'Em All,' GOP Rep. Andy Ogles Says of Palestinians in Gaza
(www.commondreams.org)
this post was submitted on 21 Feb 2024
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Hey wait a minute I thought we were all voting for Republicans because the Democrats didn't immediately get Israel to do all the things we wanted them to do.
Literally who is voting Republican over Gaza? And before you say it, no. Not engaging with a two party election in which both candidates support genocide is not the same as voting for the one you don't like.
No, we are voting against democrats because they continue to supply weaponry, ammunition, and a fucking carrier strike group to protect Israel from its own decisions.
If they want to massacre thousands of innocent children, let them do it on their own and take whatever fucking backlash they get.
They have no problems doing any of this as long as we are protecting them, let the chickens come home to roost on them
There's a third alternative for those who won't vote for Biden, but don't support Republicans. Primary. Essentially, picking democratic candidates that aren't endorsed by AIPAC on the downballot. We do have people like AOC, and Sanders whom that are against Israel, and Hamas.
That's more reasonable than voting against Democrats.
As far as consequences goes, Israel has been facing the prospect of decreased international support, but that will take a decade at best for it to be significant. Gen Z and Millennials don't really have good feelings toward Israel after their actions within war, and Israelis know it. It's on Israel to change policy along with a trial toward settlers and people that supports Netanyahu, and if they want them back, that's the only way to do it, otherwise, I don't see Israel having the longevity to avoid that.
I went independent already.
The democrats are supporting too many conservative views for me.
The republicans are too far right.
The commies are too far left.
Although typing this out just now made non-binary people finally click in my head.
Questions.
Which democrats are conservative? Is Bernie/AOC a conservative? Are they a commie? There's a portion of the democratic party that aren't centrists.
Republicans are definitely too far-right.
Sanders is only a democrats because they forced him to be to run for president.
But right about there
He's a Independent that caucus with the Democratic Party. But, my point is that there's two wings of the Democratic Party. It's the Bernie wing of the Democratic Party that is to be supported mainly. That wing won't be a relevant party if it was a third party, the GOP needs to die before that can happen.
If the party is shoving us to the side and only paying lip service to us and carting us out when it is time to vote, then are we really part of the party at all?
The thing is even intraparty feuds are resolved via compromises to minority wing. So yes, AOC wing of the Democratic Party do have some level of influences toward the Democratic Party.
>There’s a third alternative for those who won’t vote for Biden, but don’t support Republicans. Primary.
nah. i'm just going to vote for someone i want to win in the general like cornel west or jill stein.
Primary election is not the same thing as the general election. And the downballot is what I'm talking about, which is why Cornel West or Jill Stein isn't even part of it. So, people who can't be willing to vote for Biden, can vote for people in the downballot.
You don't think that the alternative is worse? You don't think that Republicans will supply double the aid to Israel and half the aid to Ukraine?
It's a privileged position to be able to say "I want to wash my hands of the whole thing." People executing that privilege in 2016 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2004 got us to where we are today. People executing that privilege in 2000 got us to where we are today. How well do you think it's going to work out for you this year?
No some of us just aren't showing up to vote for Biden. Personally I'll be voting for a 3rd party candidate or writing in. We made it clear we didn't support Biden as a choice in the 2020 primaries. Progressives and leftists provided multiple alternatives we would have generally all backed in the general even though we definitely had our favorites.
Moderates responded by claiming "We can push Biden to the left." Many progressive and leftist voters took this to mean we had a seat at the table so we showed up in the 2020 general election. After four years of Biden it's very clear we continue to have no seat at the table despite being desperately needed to win the 2024 general election. Moderates continue to bank on using the fear of Trump to coerce progressives and leftists to show up to vote while having zero influence at all. Then they have a melt down and call us entitled when we say we've had enough and we're walking away from the table we don't have a seat at.
Moderates can either compromise with leftists or progressives or lose to fascists. It's really that simple.
Well, guess what's gonna happen then. If you are in danger of starving, do you refuse a bruised apple or wait for pizza?
Frankly I'm tired of these made up questions. Do you want to compromise with progressives and leftists or lose to fascists? Stop bargaining, make a choice and be confident that the outcome is what you chose.
So your choice is to lose to fascists...? Because if people don't vote for Biden, Democrats will lose to fascists.
No made up analogy there. Straight up go to jail, don't pass go, end of democracy, Trump dictatorship. This honestly is not hyperbole this time around.
Sounds like y’all need our help but aren’t willing to listen to us.
I heard all this same shit last time.
I am done being the only one who has to compromise.
Fix your candidate if you want my votes
Sounds like you better try to work on moderates then.
So even though you don't think it's what you're doing, you're choosing neutrality. And "neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim."
I'd consider myself more a leftist than not, but I'm not blind. Events like this make it quite clear how much worse the other option is. Neither side actually cares, so I'm going with the side that does the least harm, even though I don't think it goes far enough.
Then you will continue to lap at their heels.
Or, you can stand up and find your voice and fight with us against it
And how many people will the Republicans kill, disenfranchise, or otherwise dehumanize before somebody starts listening to my voice?
I certainly couldn't have that on my conscience.
But you will if you guys continue to say fuck you to is.
You guys are choosing to run that candidate with all the risk that takes.
Why is it ALWAYS on us to give in to you guys?
If your person is popular enough he will win, if not, we’ll that’s the horse that y’all bet on knowing how so many of us feel.
Stand up in the primaries, we're in the general election now. This is the only strategy that works with FPTP.
The 6 months before the general election is the only period when you don't want to create division. That gives you 3 years and 6 months for critical discussion which is fairly reasonable.
We did. There were a wide range of leftist and progressive candidates to chose from. Moderates said "none of those we choose this old guy who's gonna block strikes, force federal workers back into the office and supply weapons to Israel."
You're free to call yourself whatever you want but all you're doing is repeating moderate talking points for them. Whatever your beliefs are, your actions support moderate politics. The same politics which have failed to address Trump.
The Trump Supreme court has intervened to shut down any meaningful progressive initiatives (see student loan forgiveness, for example).
I think Biden fumbled that himself. Along with the BBB, increasing the defense budget, the CHIPS act and the way he treated the UAW. On top of that his appointments Yellen and Powell are in an outright war with American Workers, he pushed to block the rail strike and he's supplying weapons to Israel.
That's plenty of opportunities I can think of where Biden could have done something different. I'm open to other ideas as well. But if you're just trying to tell me Biden couldn't do anything different than he has that's a terrible sales pitch for someone you want me to vote for in the 2024 general. I'll be there but I'm gonna be voting 3rd party or a write in.
I don't think anyone was arguing you can push Biden to the left. I guess you had that Bernie commission but nothing was promised beyond that. What happened is more people voted for Biden so he won. That's democracy.
I'm not saying you have to vote for Biden, you're allowed to do whatever, but it's not some fairy tale that by not voting for Biden you're helping Trump. You are, you just don't care. You would rather Trump be president for the next 4 years because you think Moderate Democrats will learn some lesson that they didn't the last time the exact same thing happened in 2016.
What will really happen is moderates will claim the candidate catered to the left so much that it turned off moderates (or pick a group, didnt cater enough to suburban Hispanics or whatever), and the Left will say the candidate didn't cater to the left enough, and in 2028 that won't be resolved and the person who wins the most votes will win again entirely unrelated to the question. So you're not sending the message you think you're sending, you're just hurting the candidate whose interests are the closest to yours. Allowed, but not what I'd recommend as a political strategy.
But, thats what always happens anyways in every election, regardless if Trump is running or not.
I guarantee you, when they go back to do a postmortem post-election, and see a whole voting block not showing up, that'll definitely send a message.
They're actually already seeing it today, or do you not wonder why Biden keeps trying to pay off student loans every way he has available to him.
Its the party's responsibility to offer candidates that people can vote for, and not demand people to vote for the party so the other party does not win. Coercing a vote out of someone is not the American thing to do.
Right, my point is that you aren't "teaching moderate Democrats a lesson" by helping Trump. You're just helping Trump.
No post mortem has ever decided the candidate needed to be further from the center to gain more votes. I don't see why you think it would happen now. There are more people in the middle, and winning over a vote from Trump is worth twice as much as moving a non-voting Leftist to vote. Those are the tradeoffs of campaigning.
Magnificent. Biden is doing something you like, this is somehow evidence of why you shouldn't vote for him.
Biden does some left wing stuff too, yes. He's not trying to alienate left wing people, he is doing electorally popular things, and he has to get Republicans on board for any law he wants to pass. This forces moderation. If you are demanding Medicare For All or you won't vote for him, you just aren't living in reality.
To be clear, the party isn't saying this, I am. Biden is trying to be popular to the widest swath of people possible, to beat Trump. If you're saying you're going to vote against him to send a message nobody is going to listen to, I think you're making a mistake and helping the guy you hate, way more than you are doing any good.
The way to send an inter-party message is in the primaries. Get your person (or a person significantly closer to you ideologically) to be the candidate and make everyone else choose between them or the guy they hate. If Bernie was the candidate I'd be telling moderates to vote for him just like this.
I honestly disagree with you on many of your assertions, but I have already voted in the primary to someone else besides Biden, to do that signaling you mentioned.
And as far as the student loan thing goes, the Democrats know they're really in trouble with the younger voting block, and the quantity and the insistence of them trying to do something over and over again is the point I was trying to bring to the discussion, to show that not voting party lines send signals (which you disagree with). Its not just about that I disagree with something that I like for him to do as you have asserted. It's a signal that they recognize already the problem and they're trying to course correct on it. The signal was received.
To bottom line this, it's the party's responsibility to save America from Trump, and not the voters. The party has to put up people that the voters will want to vote for. If he's not fit for office today, there's a good chance during the next four years he will become unfit for office.
For the good of the country, Biden should step aside, and let someone healthier run for the party nomination, OR have third party medical personnel confirm his cognitive abilities right now, and how long they will last throughout his whole second term in office, and make that information available publicly, so voters can use it to help decide on who to vote for.