this post was submitted on 29 Mar 2024
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It's a round about way of saying they want a civil war.
A lot of those types of leftists fantasize about a glorious revolution, but many revolutions have happened and no utopias exist so…
I think Contrapoints made the same argument in one of her videos.
Agreed. I would add to that -- there's actually an incredibly instructive example to draw by looking at the non-violent-revolutionary movements that did achieve big social change in the past. The US labor movement in the late 1800s, Gandhi's independence movement, the US civil rights movement with its partial victory, things like that. There are a ton of examples of people who achieved big things to revise the systems that rule their daily lives, starting from a way less advantaged position than the left in the modern day US. It's not easy, no, but compared to an Indian person under the British Raj it's an absolute cakewalk.
Strangely enough, the people who are so incredibly upset with the broken system in the US as it pertains to this election (which, yeah, I get that), are somehow totally uninterested in looking at what actions big or small might produce positive change. They're solely focused on criticizing Biden and only Biden, or on saying that it's so broken that we might as well let Trump come to power because what's the difference.
It's like "The plane is having engine trouble and I don't know if we're going to make it. I'm real scared and upset about the situation we're in. I know! Let's shoot the pilot in the head."
Wasn't the us labor movement violent? I seem to remember something about troops firing on striking miners.
Mine owners utilized violence and essentially wage slavery to keep miners from unionizing and asking for more fair working conditions. Pinkertons got their reputation as being violent corporate mercenaries in this period, and they continue to be. The violence caused miners to fight back, and when they did the US army got involved usually in the interest of the mine owners. The lead up to the Battle of Blair Mountain is one of the best examples of this and maybe the most impactful.
It was nonviolent, until bosses/police starting shooting miners and their families, at which point it developed into a small-scale civil war. So yes, I shouldn't have simply said blanket non violent I guess... I was just trying to draw a distinction between "let's fight for justice for ourselves" versus "let's storm the capital and do away with the leaders" as two roads (with the first being more effective, and the second often leading to catastrophe instead of the progress that was hoped for.)
I love how centrists will confidently cite the civil rights movement without a hint of irony, and then completely ignore what those civil rights leaders had to say about the objections of moderates over direct action. They'll silently downvote a direct quote from MLK without engaging with how it somehow doesn't apply to them.
Direct action on Gaza sounds great.
Are you under the impression that MLK was saying, don't vote for Boutwell in his election against Bull Connor, because Boutwell isn't good enough to deserve our support?
He's not making a comment on voting or not voting at all, in fact this is written after Boutwell was elected.
He's addressing criticisms that directing protests at Boutwell before he has a chance to govern is misplaced and ill-timed, and he's pointing out that while Boutwell may be gentler, he's still a segregationist and is still in need of pressure. It doesn't matter if one is gentler than the other, the goal remains the same, and no freedom is ever given by the oppressor without being demanded.
Biden is gentler, but he's still a Zionist, and so he is still in need of pressure.
In case you're unfamiliar with the rest of his letter, he's also saying that the purpose of all direct action is to place pressure on moderates so that they may come to the negotiation table, even -and especially- direct action that causes material (in MLK's case, non-violent) harm to those same moderates.
And I haven't even gotten to the Malcom X quotes.
I know what he's saying, yes. Like I say, pressure on Biden over Gaza sounds great, and it actually seems like it's having an impact, although it's still pretty fuckin mild compared with what the US should be doing.
It's less than it should be, but it's more than anyone has done before.
I've been super impressed with most of the conversations here and how they've evolved. Early on, there was a lot of friction between the uncommitted movement and the center-left, and I saw some accounts really grabbing ahold of that divide and trying to expand it... but the community turned it around. We saw a few weeks of posts explaining the difference between primaries and the general in a surprisingly nonabusive way for social media and now those troll accounts can just keep throwing out "genocide Joe" and it becomes less plausible and more ridiculous everyday he takes another step away from Israel.
Man, do I want more, but we've gotta claw for every inch, and it's easier to do together.
They also seem to leave out the reality that without the threat of Malcom MLK would have been a lot less effective.
Well said.
I believe a fraction of them are actual authoritarian sympathizers, and are just hoping "their brand" will align with a future hypothetical autocrat.
They don't want actual justice, they just want to reroll the dice and hopefully come out on top.
To the other fraction, I think those folks are exactly the folks who completed those movements you mentioned. They worked hard to push the existing system towards their goal, often starting from a very weak position.
That pushing largely isn't done, and it is less glamorous and obvious compared to flipping the table, killing the current leaders (and a bunch of other demonized but innocent groups oopsie daisy) and trying again. That's how you get a Khmer rouge and then a pol pot.
We need another MLK and his contemporaries.
I agree, we really need some leftists who have the backbone of MLK.
Now that shit will fire you up. Good stuff.
Notice he was very forceful and determined, but never said stupid stuff like "hurr let's get the guillotine!"
Nor did he say "hurr it's your duty to vote for the lesser-evil!"
Well, it's completely irrelevant to the quote
Lol wut? He's saying that power comes from solidarity, and with solidarity you make demands, and when you have power you do not relent until those demands are met. He's also saying that the harm caused by direct action in pursuit of liberty is justified, even when that harm is to everyone (as in the case of a general work stoppage in an entire city). That you don't want to see the relevance isn't something I can help.
The point isn't to cause the harm, it's to use the threat to gain concessions.
Yeah that's about unions, in active negotiations.
You are not in active negotiations. You are in the end game. You have very few possible choices, and holding out (not voting) does not empower a track of choices, or opportunity. It only silos you into a particular choice.
"Sticking it out" does not better your scenario, and especially does not better the scenario of the most at risk.
Quit bolding shit, I know how to read.
Lol what a fruitful day of reading: since you mentioned Gandhi...
Honestly, of all the civil rights figures you could have cited, Gandhi is the one who would tell you that non-cooperation with evil is more important than self-preservation. How on earth could you look at Gandhi and say; 'he would want me to vote for the lesser evil'?
I thought we had worked this out earlier, talking about Bull Connor. I was all on board when I thought you were saying, let's give Biden a hard time over Gaza. Now I'm a lot less sure what you're saying.
Do you think working as a collaborator of the Raj, is more or less the same as voting for the clearly less-genocide-supporting of two arguably-genocide-supporting candidates?
Would this apply also to refusing to vote for Boutwell over Connor, or refusing to vote for the SDP (with all its colonial adventures in Africa and etc) over the NSDAP in prewar Germany?
Gandhi worked with the lesser evil plenty to earn India's independence. He negotiated with Britain on pacts and agreements that didn't result in India's freedom but generally gained them more autonomy and fairness. He even supported the British in WW2 and suspended independence efforts at the time.
If Gandhi said "okay hold up, let's take care of the fascists alongside our colonizers"*, I think he would want you to vote for the lesser evil. I think we can infer from his actions that progressively achieving a goal through nonviolence is something he wholeheartedly supported.
*(Granted, he still advocated that Japan and the Nazis be defeated without significant violence)
And Douglass eventually worked with Lincoln, but not before ruthlessly criticizing him and supporting the dump-lincoln movement
Gandhi refused repeated offers from the British, he absolutely did not just accept their offer as given.
Lol this is what gets me about the "get the guillotine" folks.
They think they'll be the youth on the propaganda poster, waving the flag over the rubble of a conquered city, as if that's realistic, or that it wouldn't come with massive loss of life (not just in the capital class), lawlessness, and a huge power vacuum that will obviously be filled by an authoritarian (and likely a bigoted fascist).
People only seem to know the "guillotining the aristocracy" part, not the "reign of terror" part.
Or the bit about setting up systems of mutual aid so that our comrades arent killed by the dogs. Theyre here to cry against voting. Not to actually bring about a revolution and especially not keep each other alive in the event of one.
I've seen some people on lemmy when I first started lurking, try to claim that some of the most dystopian nations are really close to utopia and are actually trying really hard guys. I think many of them were those types of leftists.
Just get a load of the accounts that keep replying to the comments i leave. Theyre not good faith actors. Theyre paid trolls or bots. And theyve flooded this thread. This post was at 440 upvotes with 240 comments some hrs ago and as of now sits at 489 and 360 comments. That should hopefully strike one as unusual. Im willing to bet that in that time this thread was upvoted significantly more than 50 times. American leftists are being targeted to ensure we dont turn out in november.
Specifically America needs a revolution. There have been many revolutions around the world and its America that counteracts all of the wins for the people. If America had a revolution then finally we might be able to make some progress.
There's no utopias because of America.
All those armchair warriors that have a couple guns and say they're ready for the revolution, but aren't even participating in any activism besides edgelording on forums.
Sure you are, champ. Sure you are. Why don't you instacart yourself some hot pockets and a gallon of ice cream.
If you aren't part of at least three mutual aid groups providing mesh support in your tri-county area, I don't wanna hear a goddamn thing about the revolution from you.
This comment reads like sarcasm, but unironically yeah. If you aren't politically active already, you're not going to suddenly gain the will to overthrow the government when Trump wins again.
For sure. If you want to break the chains of international capitalism, you better have a tested plan to replace those logistics networks for necessities.
I hope this doesn't come across as insincere, but why is the tri-county part relevant? Is it just a convenient geographic grouping? Is it a metaphor?
Metaphor. I mean you should not only be supporting your own community, but involved in inter-community aid and organization if you are truly advocating for a revolution.