this post was submitted on 20 Jun 2024
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[–] [email protected] 48 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (7 children)

I'm not sure how this helps though. These people can say to future generations, "well, we didn't get people to stop using fossil fuels, but we did damage a 5000-year-old monument that was made long before anyone had the idea of burning fossil fuels to make people aware of a problem they were already aware of but powerless to do anything about."

This isn't going to stop oil companies from drilling for oil.

It reminds me of a friend of mine I used to follow elsewhere on social media. Every day, she would post pictures of 'death row dogs' in nearby shelters that were going to be euthanized. There was fuck all I could do about it. I already have two dogs, from shelters. I don't have room for more and I couldn't afford more. So all it did was make me feel like shit. Then she started posting photos with "too late" messages and I stopped following her.

How does that help?

[–] [email protected] 29 points 10 months ago (2 children)

but we did damage a 5000-year-old monument

As far as I could find out, they used orange cornflour that will just wash off the next time it rains. The most amount of damage anyone could seriously bring up was that it could harm/displace the lichen on the henge.

That's not to say that I specifically condone the action, but it's a lot less bad than this article makes it sound. It's the same with the soup attack on one of van Gogh's painting, which had protective glass on it. So far all the JSO actions targeting cultural/historical things (at least the ones that made it to the big news) have been done in a way that makes them sound awful at first hearing, but intentionally did not actually damage the targeted cultural/historical thing.

I think the biases of the journalist/news outlet/etc. are somewhat exposed by which parts they focus on and which they downplay or omit entirely.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I hope you're right because this article says they used a spray can.

Also, orange dye can easily get into cracks in the rocks and stay there for a very long time. Especially if it displaces the lichens. That won't make it collapse, so maybe 'damage' is not the right word, but this is potentially long-lasting vandalism which, as far as I can see, will have no effect on the actual problem.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I hope you’re right because this article says they used a spray can.

Which brings me back to the last point in my comment.

I also hope I'm right. The two times I looked into it (right after the attack and before writing my comment) both came up with that result. Also it seems that English Heritage came out today saying there was "No visible damage".

As I said, I'm not writing to defend the action, just pointing out that the OP article is, willfully or not, omitting certain aspects that could make JSO look a little bit better.

Edit: Formatting

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago (3 children)

How does that help?

We're talking about it

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (24 children)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

“The orange cornflour we used to create an eye-catching spectacle will soon wash away with the rain..."

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

will soon wash away with the rain..."

Just like any attention they may have grabbed due to their stunt.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Note how we are talking about how large of douchebags the activists are and just how much they damaged a cultural heritage site.

Fuck these people.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

“The orange cornflour we used to create an eye-catching spectacle will soon wash away with the rain..."

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Yeah. That's their intent. But they really don't know for sure that their stunt won't have some completely unexpected effect. Some slow reaction with that specific kind of stone that only matters if the powder gets deep into some cracks for 200 years or whatever. Or attracts stone eating bacteria of some sort.

The point is that they dont know what they dont know. Every time they pull one of these stunts, they are introducing the risk of irrevocable damage to historically significant objects that should be left to future generations.

Stop fucking around with human history. Stone Henge is a world wonder.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Which does exactly what? Is it at all likely that anyone actually able to do anything about this was unaware of the climate change disaster we're facing and this will change their mind?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

If you dont see any value in common discourse, you have already given up on life and the world imo.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

This is hardly common discourse.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Many of the recent protests about climate change have been less direct and more about stirring up controversy to force the public to actually think about their decisions.

My hat off to them as so far this style of protest has been working and has resulted in many of us pushing for better climate control.

You're right this isn't going to stop companies, but even if you disagreed with them it puts climate change in your conscious mind. Even if that simply means you'll try to make slightly more climate friendly decisions moving forwards, that's a win.

Personally I don't know if I agree with the technique, but I do feel like it has been working in terms of making people discuss this topic more.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago

My hat off to them as so far this style of protest has been working and has resulted in many of us pushing for better climate control.

I don't know that I believe that is because of these protests and not just seeing what's happening to the world. I really do not see pissing people off by painting Stonehenge, especially when it's during a religious festival, helping this cause.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Normally I would say this damage was inappropriate. But, considering humanity is going to be eradicated in the next hundred years, give or take, I think maybe we should be doing more to slow that down.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (1 children)

FWIW this kind of alarmist talk only lets people write off your comment as hysterical. Humans are not going to go extinct in the next 100 years, Canada isnt going to become hotter than Arabia and become unlivable.

What we might (and even possibly the most likely scenario is to) get is wide scale societal breakdown, starvation of billions, mass migration of billions of those currently living in regions that become uninhabitable but dont starve, and the consequant resource wars that those entail. The future is bleak enough without making up even worse things that wont happen.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Would you like to make a wager?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That a viable population of humans will be alive in 2124? Sure how much do you want to bet? I think your chance of collecting from me if im wrong when im more than 120 years old are slim though.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)
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[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

But how will this slow that down?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Obviously humanity is not being squeaky enough. Maybe if enough things are destroyed, The rest of the world will finally pay attention.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Why do you think "the world" matters? This is mostly the fault of a few corporations and their executives couldn't give less of a shit about what someone does to Stonehenge.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

How do we stop evil corporations? With political action. How do we get political action? Either by voting or collective activism.

There's no solution that doesn't require ourselves to spring into action, even if it's "mostly the fault of a few corporations and their executives".

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

How do we stop evil corporations? With political action. How do we get political action? Either by voting or collective activism.

That is true.

But they are doing activism for the wrong side. The conservatives and far right will jump on this one, because they just gotten handed a talking point on a silver platter. "Radical left activists attack cultural heritage site". They couldn't have asked for a more perfect one.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Voting for whom? They're all corrupt, or haven't you noticed? We're living in a global oligarchy.

Also, why on Earth do you think environmental activists pissing people off will help with any sort of collective action?

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago

I thought oil was the problem?

Their point is absolutely valid. Their method is absurd. This doesn't generate a dialogue, it undermines the point by enabling opponents to rightfully condemn the vandalism and changes no minds.

Attacking art or culture is counterproductive.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yet this kind of protests just alienates the protesters from the population they want support from

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Your example shows exactly what people are missing. Just because you did not have the capacity for more dogs doesnt mean that other people never got convinced to save one of those dogs. If those pictures convinced even just one person to adopt a dog, then it was worth the minor inconvienience that you had to go through.

Similarly the actual damage from this protest is slim to none (if they used the same stuff as usual that just washes away with water) and if it convinces somebody to get politically active for climate change then it was already worth it.

You thinking that you are powerless, shouldnt result in other people being forced to be powerless when they are not.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

That's not how climate change works. Everybody except for politicians and fossil fuel executives are me in this scenario. We're just being told constantly how the world is getting hotter and something must be done and there's fuck all I can do about it. And that's also true of every person at Stonehenge that day.

We can't control where the energy comes from and what cars are made and what bottles drinks are put in. And it's really clear that it doesn't matter who we vote for either.

So, in this situation, people see these stunts and just get angry and stop paying attention since there's nothing they can do about it anyway.

Again, how does this help?

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