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Childish? Kinda. Insane? No.
There are three relevant things to say about hexbear.
1. It is not a serious instance. Or at least not completely serious; they're mostly there for memes, funposting, "I know that feel" etc.
So they're less like the meeting room of a communist party than like the bar where those communists hang out and drink beer, after the meeting is over.
I feel like this is often misinterpreted, as HB users say something that is mostly a taunt and others interpret as actual argumentation. And it also tends to attract younger users, who... well, behave like young people?
2. Even if not a serious instance, they're serious about their views. Your typical HB user is communist, antifa, vegan, anti-cop, and interprets things in a very specific way. They're rather transparent about it.
And, because of #1, they aren't really willing to spend their time entertaining anyone's counterpoints. It'll be interpreted as sealioning or similar.
3. Hexbear was already its own thing before federation. As such it developed social norms that often conflict with the norms typically found in the rest of the Threadiverse (Lemmy, Mbin, Piefed etc.)
For example, even if Lemmy as a whole is prone to intrusive political discussions, HB users tend to do it far more. Because they're used to an environment where this is typically taken as OK.
When it comes to dealing with HB users here, my advice is the exact same as dealing with other users:
This is the most reasonable response.
A lot of people here have long since made up their mind about hexbear based both on repeated meta posting on the topic and possibly a bad experience or two with them on a topic they assumed was uncontested but is a landmine topic for communists of a particular bent
I've personally never had a bad experience with hexbears, possibly because I'm more empathetic to their perspective, but more likely because I know when it's time to disengage. There are users on lemmy who feel strongly about a certain topic that's abrasive to hexbear users and dig in their heels when jeered at (or maybe feel a personal responsibility to stand them down) and are usually the users here who have the most complaints, because the standard reaction from hexbear users is irreverence (both the users and the mods).
Unlike a lot of liberals coming from reddit, communists often don't have delusions about the neutrality of moderation and so they'll ban you on a whim if they think you're there to stir shit. They use the ban hammer judiciously even with users on their own instance. That's often the biggest complaint both with hexbear and with lemmy.ml.
really well articulated. I feel bad for well meaning people, but so often they don't realize it comes across as the exact same kind of bad faith trolling that communist online groups have to constantly deal with and so mods and users have little patience for it if it's not explicitly a thread for that kind of conversation.
To be fair I've had a few bad experiences with Hexbears, but I think that most of them boil down to "unfunny guy interacting with unserious kids". But since I'm often lurking there in my political account, I feel like my opinion about them is a bit less ungrounded than this whole "Hexbear bad! EDIT WOW THANKS FOR THE GOLD KIND STRANGER!" echo chamber.
(I also have a few bones to pick with .ml [the people in charge, not the whole instance], but they don't apply to LG or HB, it's a matter of transparency.)
Browsing their coms can be a pretty unique experience, especially if you go in with a preformed idea of what their communities are like. There's a huge spread of interests and experiences, and sometimes you can be browsing a niche community and forget that these were the people posting BPB on lemmy.world threads a year ago.
Knowing the academic writings and history they're referencing helps a lot with understanding where they are coming from, even if you may not agree with all of it.
Thank you for saying this in a more detailed way than I have been. This is exactly right. They built their own leftist haven and became a whole culture of their own, and then became federated. There is bound to be an initial clash, but honestly I think most of the people who hate on them never gave them a chance. All they saw were the shitposts and the in-jokes and you closed the door.
I see a lot of leftists (and leaning leftists), even on .world, who would be better off interacting with the users there (maybe blocking the shitposting comms). And outside of those most-seen comms (chapotraphouse and dunk_tank), there is genuine conversation and less shit talking and in-jokes. I believe, with more instances coming in that are federated with them (mine, .ml, and lem.ee? are a couple), some of the Hex-natives are understanding how to interact with curious left-leaning people with unintentionally wrong-headed ideas.
Downvote me all you want, I stand by Hexbear. o7
Answer me this: are they or are they not consistently in support of Russia/China? Because I've seen it a lot from them (and blocked the instance soon after joining Lemmy when I noticed the pattern).
Is it just some big joke that went over my head?
Support for PRC? Yes.
Support for the Russian Federation? Purely the anti-NATO role it takes, Hexbear hates Putin and the reactionary nature of the Russian Federation.
With China, mostly yes. With Russia, only in very specific contexts, otherwise they are VERY critical of it (as they are with most burgeois government, but particularly more due to the reactionary nature of the Russian government from what I’ve seen).
I'm curious about this, do you hold the same opinion about lemmygrad?
That is one of the few instances my instance is defederated from, so I haven’t had much interaction with them. I can speak about Hexbear because I see their posts and interact with them.
Lemmygrad.ml is a "serious" community of Marxist-Leninists, and are Dengists as well (or at least largely sympathetic towards Deng).
Hexbear is Left-Unity, and more of a community focused instance.
The views are largely similar, but the tone and goals of each instance are different.
well, views are pretty much the same. typically, grad users shitpost less and are less active as a whole but are more sectatarian because the rules of the instance allow for it, although there really isn't that much sectarianism on there, the comm with the most sectatarinsm "shitultrassay" has only 20 posts in the last six months, whereas the equivalent comm for dunking on social and conservative liberals has over 100 posts in the last month alone
Interestingly those points all applied to The_Donald as well.
Ah yes, famously communist, antifa, vegan, anti-cop the_donald.
I think that this is a red herring.
Even if the first two points apply (do they? I don't think so, but I'm not going to dispute it*), the problem with T_D was neither, it was users there actively promoting hate against marginalised groups.
And, while you can complain a thousand things about Hexbear, they are not promoting hate against marginalised groups. On the contrary - if they even smell that you might be potentially promoting it, they'll ban you under a "better safe than sorry" approach.
*reason: I don't care about USA internal politics.
Yeah, the famous antifa-tankers. Every single person I've ever seen that identifies as antifa was a tanker. Other people run away from that label.
I really hate that I need to point this out, because I feel like it will derail the discussion from Hexbear to fascism:
"Antifa" boils down to "people who actively oppose fascism", instead of either supporting it or sitting on their hands while doing jack shit.
I highly recommend you give Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism and On Authority a read. At least On Authority, as it's a very short piece, but the two combined should give you a basic understanding of the historical and theoretical basis of why marxists defend the use of authority. I can understand where you are coming from, I was more than a little skeptical of authoritarianism when I was younger and still identified as an anarchist, but I think if you take the time to honestly engage with our position then you will at least understand why our stance is what it is, and how we are diametrically opposed to fascism, even if you don't agree with us.
Blackshirts and Reds was eye opening for me
Plenty HB users are authoritarian. I disagree with them in this; however I don't think that both things cancel out, given the fascism is orders of magnitude worse than authoritarianism alone.
Yeah, because saying "cat shit is not as huge as elephant shit" is the same as saying "cat shit is not shit". /s
This guy knows nothing of the political spectrum.
This guy knows nothing of the political spectrum.
Wtf is loam?
Loam (suglinok literally means "next to clay") is a sandy soil with under 35-40% clay content, as you can tell from the political compass I posted
Liberalism in the center? Gosh, this is the most American political coordinates there could be
It's almost physically triggering how off-base that is
Why would you let a "chart" trigger you physically? What good will that do?
The point is that it skews the understanding of "left" and "right" to favor the latter.
Essentially serving as a tool to claim socialist policies extreme and liberal ones perfectly balanced.
Sounds like your just slurring his opinion without trying to be civil and engaging with honest logical discussion.
Which I would certainly engage in if I wouldn't remember you personally as a troll who cares little of civility.
If someone else is up for debating it, I'm always here.
Also, one thing you genuinely caught me on is a bit of an emotional outburst, while I generally am the one picking civility card. Good job! I do apologize for that part.
The coordinates are heavily skewed and likely to either be formed in a right-wing society or intentionally made as to confuse people.
Now your slurring me personally. Shame on you. How hard is it to believe I had a moment of emotional outburst? I hope you get the help you need and can be a kinder gentler person. Good day to you I hope your soul finds balance.
My apologies. I previously didn't see you in civil conversations, while meeting you in your rainy ways twice before, and I could be too quick to conclude. Lemmy is flooded with that kind of stuff lately, which turns brain into a razor mode as a way of protecting against an artificial hate wave.
If you'd like to politely discuss anything, I'm all for it.
I’m sorry, I’m an American where liberals are actually centrists, but can you explain to me what else is off-base about this chart?
Edit: I would also like to see a chart that is more accurate in your view if you have one available.
Generally, it is the fact that right-wing entails focus on businesses and private property owners, and left-wing entails direct focus on the economic wellbeing of everyone and a more egalitarian society. Liberals do not strike a meaningful balance here, and commonly see business freedoms as paramount to building a prosperous society, generally pursuing business-friendly policies.
In more extreme cases of the political spectrum (which I agree for in terms of clarity and fairness, but which are not really a consensus) left-wing is seen as actual socialism (i.e. collectively/socially owned enterprises) and right-wing is capitalism (i.e. private property and its operation for profit). This makes a useful and clear distinction in relation to economic policy and is not dictated by the hegemony of one option. It also makes centrism virtually impossible, which is good, because the meaning of "center" drifts radically between cultures, and most people tend to just associate with whatever is predominant in their culture while calling themselves such.
Here is how voters of neighboring Canada have put themselves on a political compass, on average, in relation to their party of choice during the 2019 election. Note that liberals are very much not in the center, and more right-wing, while conservatives as well as People's party (don't look at the name, it's seen as far right even by American metrics), predictably, are extremely authoritarian-right.
P.S. Sorry for being a bit rash :)
I see US liberals as defending both social and economic policies. Here are some examples I can think of:
I am just speaking to what I observe, but I think the trick the liberal party in my country play is a show of being “for the people” and giving concessions but, in the end, being absolutely capitalist motivated.
Yes! The latter part of what you say explains exactly to me why liberals cannot be the center.
Being "for the people" is more of a show here, while they are funded and act in the interest of businesses. When people do demand change that goes against capitalists, they will play everything to keep the spectacle while clearly not choosing people's side. Often times, they don't even give concessions - just pretend internal struggles stopped them from implementing the changes. And at the same time, this doesn't break the logic of liberalism.
Thanks for clearing that up. Also, I find it ironic talking to another leftist on the Hexbear hate thread.
Heh
Not a Hexbear member, though. Generally, Lemmy is heavily left-leaning.
I can see you’re not a hexbear, but this is a post in a .world comm where even enlightened takes on liberals such as yours aren’t always welcome. Anyway, thanks for the chat.
Is there something in the name requiring people to support fascism if it wears the right color?
Do some people fighting fascism (aka antifa) go overboard? Yes, certainly; that's bound to happen with any movement, group, or cohort.
For example, someone might miss the target due to witch hunting, or adopt an "ends always justify means" mindset, or even conflate "non-suporter = enemy".
However. By implying that "antifa is fascism wearing a different colour", like you are doing, you're showing to not understand the obvious difference between
This conflation between both groups is not just immoral. It's worse - it stinks stupidity and similar filth from a distance. As such I'm not wasting my time further with you, go chew some grass.
Most antifa groups are anarchist collectives. So I'm not sure where you're seeing this, unless it's solely from people that are terminally online.
Organized anti-fascist groups often have a mix of left ideological backgrounds, but are mostly anarchists and communists. We work together when it comes to physical defense, barricades, etc.
e.g. many people in black bloc are Maoists even though outsiders tend to assume they are all anarchists.