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As a Palestinian American, I can’t vote for Joe Biden any more. And I am not alone
(www.theguardian.com)
Anything Biden can do, Trump can do worse.
this post was submitted on 18 Apr 2024
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politics
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As a Canadian I don't have to deal with it directly, but I don't think I could cast a vote for Biden. Downvotes on these posts are strange to me. From outside the US it's obvious that while Israel bears primary responsibility for the ongoing ethnic cleansing, it likely wouldn't have developed so completely without the material, economic, and political support of the Biden administration. Simply telling a group that, sure this guy is cool with the elimination of your people and is willing to help, but the other guy is a threat to our system... well it's pretty rich to expect that group to suck it up.
Trump would gladly support turning Gaza into a parking lot, and quite likely would have US troops engaged in a war with Iran right now. So, the actual choice is Biden, who's attempting but largely failing to restrain Israeli military actions, and Trump, who would actively support them and undoubtedly support subsequent Jewish settlement of Gaza once the Palestinian "problem" has been solved.
It's an unfortunate choice, sure, but it's not a hard one.
Simply telling a group that, sure this guy is cool with the elimination of your people and is willing to help, but the other guy is a threat to our system… well it’s pretty rich to expect that group to suck it up.
The other guy would probably be offering to put our troops on the ground to help Israel genocide faster. It's not just that he's a threat to our system, and he is, but that he's a horrible, horrible, terrible, un-redeemable, festering piece of excrement who you can be assured is going to do the absolute worst possible thing in every situation he finds himself in, and revel in it.
The downvotes are because “both sides are the same” is an extremely common talking point by right wing trolls/astroturfers.
Conservatives recognized a long time ago that republicans will vote. They aren’t worried about disenfranchising conservative voters. Because conservatives will be willing to jump through hoops to keep voting. Voter ID laws, for instance, largely don’t affect conservative votes. If there’s one thing conservatives are really really good at, it’s presenting a unified front for their voters.
So when barriers to voting are put in place, they’re almost universally intended to disenfranchise liberal voters. This is true for both hard barriers - Codified legislation like voter ID laws - and also for soft barriers like a lack of time or motivation to vote. There is often a lot of liberal pushback against hard barriers, (because liberal lawmakers and activists recognize that it will unfairly disenfranchise liberal voters) so lots of time and effort has shifted towards making those soft barriers larger. This includes everything from “your vote doesn’t matter, so why bother” messaging, to “both sides are the same, so why bother” messaging.
Basically, the conservatives are going to vote conservative regardless. But the liberals might not vote liberal, or might not vote at all. So the “both sides” messaging has been leveraged by conservatives to dissuade liberal voters. The downvotes are a sort of over correction from liberals who have recognized this trend. Because sure, it could be someone who is genuinely disgusted by Biden’s actions and doesn’t feel right voting for him. But it could also very easily be a right wing troll. So many liberals have simply begun downvoting any kind of “both sides” messaging, because the default assumption is that the argument isn’t being made in good faith.
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“I’m going to shoot myself in the foot on principle.“
Not what was said or meant, but undeniably the ultimate result of this approach will be leadership that actively and happily opposes ANY progress for Palestine. Period.
Biden has done poorly on an issue that the alternative would utterly disregard.
I know, the “lesser evil” argument is weak - but Biden is pushing back on Netanyahu where others would encourage and enable him.
It’s your vote - think pragmatically.
Why isn't it Biden's job to think pragmatically?
It is. He is standing by our ally while calling out their actions. I don’t agree with it either but recognize that turning our back on Israel would destabilize the mess in the region even more.
Netanyahu is the problem and it’s obvious that Biden wants him gone but for now it’s a shitty situation Iran just escalated.
What would have Biden do? Put troops in Gaza? I wish we’d cut off military aid personally but people far more qualified than me make those calls. It’s a shitshow for sure but opting for worse is not the solution.
Nope. Biden has already stated that his support for Israel is unconditional, and he's got their back no matter what they do.
A person is no better than the worst thing they will tolerate, and there's nothing he won't tolerate. Israel could build literal fucking gas chambers, and not only will he foot the bill, he'll fight anyone who tries to stop them.
The republicans run on being hateful morons, that's their whole platform and their voters know what they're getting.
The dems run on being decent responsible human beings, but you don't get to make that claim if you're too busy gagging on nazi dick. If people let them win regardless, they'll never be accountable again - and that's honestly even worse than letting the evil clowns drive.
Again, I agree Israel’s response has been excessive to the point of genocidal - but the Republicans would gleefully endorse and encourage worse. Biden has been openly lukewarm in his support and if reports are accurate he’s been railing on Netanyahu. I hate the devil’s bargain we have of supporting Israeli acts no matter what but as trivial as it is on the ground we let the UN measure pass which was telling and unprecedented.
Again, the principled opposition while justified will only promote far worse. Given that what is the logical decision?
Cut off aid, draw a line, have moral principles, have something you refuse to support.
Or lose.
That's the decision, and it's theirs to make.
I don’t know that the election would actually turn on this but I shudder to think how much worse it will get writ large if Trump gets back in the White House but I also don’t expect us to turn our back on Israel so….who knows.
Iran escalated, by returning fire?
I meant by arming the Houthis and clearly itching to get involved. The attack on their embassy was a dumb move in response which….further escalated things and frankly I think backfired massively as it eliminated the argument that Israel was solely defensive. Phrased that poorly.
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Here's some pragmatism for you.
- Leaving Israel to hang out to dry will open up America to accusations that it gives in too easily to 'antisemitic' rhetoric and doesn't really care for Jews. Don't think that can happen? It already has.
- Putin and Netanyahu, despite not being as close today, have historically been close, and Israel is a pretty friendly nation to Russia, with the third most common language spoken in Israel being Russian, and the third ranked non-Soviet state in terms of Russian speakers being Israel.
- Jews represent roughly 5.8 million Americans, compared to roughly 3.5 million. And Jews, as a whole, lean heavily towards Democrats, with roughly half of those polled in 2018 identifying with Team Blue. And while almost 60%, we're still talking 2.9 million Jews versus 2.1 million Muslims. Doing what you say you want him to do will lose him many of those 2.9 million votes, and if he listens to the most vocal of the people saying they won't vote for him, he has to wonder how much of the 2.1 million other votes he'll get back.
- And of course, the rest of the Middle East is just WAITING for us to stop protecting Israel. They've wanted Israel gone since 1949, and we are the only reason that hasn't happened. I'm sure that's entered Biden's pragmatic evaluation, too!
How's that for pragmatism for ya?
1: Jews aren't Israel, and they're perfefctly capable of making that distiction. The US doesn't need to equate them.
2: Great, let's get all the murderous shitheads in one bloc and fuck them all off together. Not seeing the downside here.
3: It's not just Muslims that he needs to win back, it's everyone on the left with any kind of principles. Including a goodly number of Jews.
4: 76 years of brutal oppression, but now Uncle Vernon isn't around to shield them from consequences? Behold my garden of fucks, may'st see that it lieth barren.
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Claiming he's pushing back while he's pushing for more funding and weapons sales is a weak argument. What he says never aligns with what he does
Fair enough, but consider what he's saying is all but unprecedented. He's tying strings to our policy and directly pushing aid to Gaza too. Yes, the air drops have not been anywhere near enough - but that they happen at all is telling.
Again, the point is that the alternative would be exponentially worse. Yes, worse even than the nightmare it already is.
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What I want to know is why nobody is pushing against Hamas too. They're not the good guys, there are none in power over there. They need to get rid of both leaders and let the young people deal with this.
But this sudden turn from "Hamas needs to stop firing rockets at malls and schools" suddenly became "omg the poor Palestinian government, we must save it!"
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"I plan to vote for the fascist who will deport me and my family out of the country. Won't you join me in destroying American democracy outright instead of shifting the Overton Window to the left by voting progressive people in and looking forward to 2028?"
they said they would vote for a so called third party. that's voting against fascists.
In the American system, voting for the 3rd party is voting for Republicans.
this is misinformation. the votes must be counted for whoever the voter chooses.
No it's not. In a 2 party system, Republican voters vote straight Republican, regardless.They see that r and they pull the trigger. Democrats, on the other hand are a much broader tent. They encompass everybody else that isn't Is die hard republican.
What pool of voters do you think are gonna be drawn mostly to a green party ticket? It's not gonna be republican voters
So in conclusion when you have a third party ticket it inevitably will weaken the democrat vote thereby putting republicans in power
What pool of voters do you think are gonna be drawn mostly to a green party ticket? It’s not gonna be republican voters
the pool who don't like war and environmental destruction
Democrats, on the other hand are a much broader tent. They encompass everybody else that isn’t Is die hard republican.
no, they don't. if that were true then no one would vote for any party except democrats and republicans. that's not the case, so you're incorrect.
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"Vote for the guy genociding your people or you will be deported." Nice.
Enjoy president Trump, a man who will guarantee the complete annihilation of Palestine, you moron.
If neither of the candidates are pro Palestine, then this issue is moot and not an election issue. Deal with it through your reps in Congress, which are the ones you should have been going after to begin with. This isn't a presidential decision stupid
There is actually a right way to do this -- Ralph Nader talked about it in his article in Mother Jones. Basically, you decide on something you tactically can achieve, get a coalition together, communicate to the candidate that you're asking them to do X, Y and Z in order to earn your vote, and then follow through. That effectively puts pressure on the Democrats to start to pursue decent things instead of the grim neoliberal crap they tend to like to do when they're left to their own devices.
Just deciding you're going to make a private decision to protect the Palestinians by refusing to vote for Biden, when Trump is 100 times worse on the Palestinians as well as many many other people, doesn't make any goddamned sense. You're wrong two times over -- one for failing to be vocal enough about your priorities to make a difference, and then again by failing to support the obviously better choice (in cases like this where the worse choice is absolutely catastrophically bad, for the Palestinians as well as for many other people.)
The vote for aid to Israel is coming up this week, separated out from the Ukraine aid, and a lot of Democrats seem like they're waking up to the idea that supporting Israel is a monstrous crime. Infinitely more productive than voting third party would be to call your congresspeople and tell their staff how you feel about it, right now of all times.
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Lol "this guy has 2 flaws so I'm going to throw my vote in the garbage" ok fascist
Good luck if Trump gets elected.
Voting for or allowing Trump to be elected by inaction, will result in injustices a thousand times worse.
Israel is a liability for the US. Contrary to popular thinking, an alliance can be a liability, especially such one that operates on politics, self-interest. People think China is weak because it has no allies. China does not have liabilities like the US does. It is not entangled in bilateral or organization defense pacts. Israel can do what it wants because the Israel lobby is powerful in the US. The US is a flawed democracy that has to follow and support an insignificant country by a lot of measures. Israel is protected. Ukraine is not protected. Nor do I think that is the point of US and NATO involvement in Ukraine. I think they wanted Russia to invade.
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