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63
Middle East Crisis: Blinken Calls Some Hamas Changes to Cease-Fire Proposal ‘Unacceptable’ (www.nytimes.com)
submitted 11 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
51 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Speaking at a news conference in Doha, Qatar, alongside Qatar’s prime minister and minister of foreign affairs, Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani, Mr. Blinken said that “a deal was on the table that was virtually identical” to one that Hamas put forward on May 6.

At some point, he said, “you have to question whether they’re proceeding in good faith or not.”

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Fuck Blinken and fuck the NYT

Fuck anyone that gives speeches at AIPAC and expects us to believe they're not bought off already

https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-at-the-2023-american-israel-public-affairs-committee-policy-summit/

Now, I have to admit – (applause) – thank you. As I was talking with Michael and Howard and the other senior leadership of AIPAC a moment ago, I said my lifelong ambition has already been fulfilled by AIPAC because a few years ago – some of you may have been there – I got to appear in the Dallas Cowboys football stadium on a jumbotron. (Laughter.) Never thought that would happen. It’s thanks to you.

Motherfuckers don't even try to deny that they've been bought off.

If you're mad conservatives buy off SC justices with trips and bribes, then you should be pissed off when other high level government officials are bought off.

And AIPAC buys a shit ton of government officials, regardless of party or anything else.

They just require complete dedication to Israel over everything else

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Why is it hard to believe that the people who started this war don't actually want it to end

[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago (2 children)

What?

I agree with that (except calling this genocide a war).

Israel started it decades ago, and openly keep saying they won't let it end until their genocide is finished.

They don't want it to end yet, because there's still Palestinians alive in Gaza.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Israel started it? Who was it that invaded the day after the British protectorate ended? Oh right, not Israel. Instead they got invaded by all of the neighbouring arab countries who didn't like the UN approved borders.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

the day after the British protectorate ended?

That's a weird place to start the clock...

Like, you understand that wasn't that long after that land was all Palestine and the people who had lived there for generations had just been forced out with violence?

That's like if you robbed someone but instead of leaving you just stayed in their house and made them live in the backyard for months while threatening them at gunpoint...

Then one day you sold the gun.

Would you be surprised the family took the opportunity to get their house back?

What do you expect that family to do if your brother was the Sheriff and the cops took your side?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

What other starting point makes sense?

Jewish people had been there just as long as the Muslim population, they both have 1000+ year histories in that region.

The Ottoman empire (which controlled the region and a lot more) collapsed after WW1 due to a myriad of reasons, including losing the war. It was split up among some of the allied countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

Because that's what happens when you lose a war.

If we're talking about returning land that changed hands during/after WW1, there's going to be about a thousand more border changes than just for Israel. Massive swaths of Europe changed hands over that period.

Specifically, if you want Israel to hand land back, does that mean that Finland needs to be handed back to the Russians? They owned the country (and a bunch of other countries) prior to the end of WW1.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

There hasn't been a sovereign and native state on that land since the Roman conquest of Judea lmfao

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Nope, but there has been a native population, blood thirsty colonizer.

The land wasn't empty. You don't get to pretend it was.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So your position is that it's more legitimate for someone to live there because their ancestors moved there under the Ottomans rather than people whose ancestors lived there before the Romans and moved back under the British?

I don't give a fuck about any of that. What I care about is that the Jewish militias were happy to accept sharing the land with a Palestinian state, while the Palestinians decided that any possible Israeli state was unacceptable and declared war.

The entire conflict stems from their inability to accept peaceful coexistence.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Tell all that to the Irgun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun and Lehi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group).

Jesus, this is like the output from chatgpt with the input being "How can I communicate that I don't have knowledge about the history of the Levant without saying I know nothing about the history of the region"

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your thirst for blood I guess

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Says the individual trying to circumspectly justify genocide.

Any government intentionally withholding food, medicine, and potable water to a population it considers undesirable is a government intentionally committing genocide.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Says the individual trying to pretend that this is a genocide and blaming the defender for the war lol

TIL allowing thousands of calories of food aid in per person per day is "withholding food"

Words don't mean anything any more. Up is down, black is white, and feeding civilians is genocide

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Controlling the borders and allowing in thousands of calories when hundreds of thousands or millions of calories are needed for the population is in fact genocide.

It's not hard to understand unless you're intentionally trying to justify genocide.

Most genocidaires in history don't stop food completely, but let in a minimal amount of food to encourage infighting.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

One person does not mean millions of calories per day, they need thousands. I believe the total food aid allowed into Gaza is around 3000 calories per person per day.

GeNoCiDe

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Only if you believe the government caught lying multiple times in this war unconditionally.

Non-biased sources say that it is closer to 245 calories per day.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/people-northern-gaza-forced-survive-245-calories-day-less-can-beans-oxfam

Also, and this isn't about the conflict, but people arguing in good faith don't confuse per capita measurements with gross measurements and call the people making that point in one stupid for using those figures consistently. That just makes you an asshole.

ClEvEDaWnY

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The math doesn't add up. If Gazans are receiving 245 calories a day and about half the food trucks they need, then either the former or the latter is incorrect. LMAO

But really, Gaza should have probably thought about how to feed their own populace before starting a war of aggression. It's not exactly Israel's job to feed a hostile populace which declared war on them. I'm simply glad that they're allowing food trucks in. It's better than most would have done and empowers their enemies.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

It’s not exactly Israel’s job to feed a hostile populace which declared war on them. I’m simply glad that they’re allowing food trucks in. It’s better than most would have done and empowers their enemies.

It literally is for countries occupying other countries during a war.

That is a job of an occupying force that if it doesn't do is LITERALLY A WAR CRIME for exactly this reason.

The US, as bad as it was for what it did in the countries it invaded STILL didn't do this. Israel is looking for special treatment by not having to live up to this standard that other countries in combat have lived up to.

I guess I really shouldn't expect competence from a conscript army.

The math doesn’t add up. If Gazans are receiving 245 calories a day and about half the food trucks they need, then either the former or the latter is incorrect. LMAO

Northern Gaza, jackass. When you destroy distribution functions of a society, shit becomes non uniformly distributed.

Keep arguing with just utterly easy to show wrong responses based off of bad faith readings of what I'm saying, it makes my responses that much easier to write in an understandable format.

EDIT: Correction, I'm not wasting more time on a propaganda brained nationalist.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Once again, we have "propaganda is when someone disagrees with me"

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Nope.

Things that you've done that make me think you are propaganda:

  1. Argued in bad faith ( intentionally conflating per-capita measurements with gross measurements to imply the other person is stupid, never acknowledges points where the other person has to correct you and instead just ignores the areas that you've been proven wrong )

  2. Believing only one source of information that is explicitly biased and comes from one of the combatants.

  3. Ignores sources of information from independent sources. This ties into point one, as you also don't acknowledge any statements shown to be incorrect.

You're free to disagree with anyone you want to. When you do the above you are either paid, or a dumbshit teenager that still enjoys trolling for the sake of trolling. I don't really care which one it is, as you're doing on the corpses of innocent children.

Oh, that's right, from your other comments it is clear that you don't believe there are any innocents in the region. Guess you forgot that collective punishment itself is also a war crime.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

CoLlEcTiVe PuNiShMeNt

Don't start wars. Wars are bad. Fuck Hamas and fuck anyone who supported them. I wish their kids had parents who gave a shit about them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Putting things in stupid caps doesn't change international law. It also doesn't change what literally every other nation in the world is expected to do, and does, in times of war.

You're literally expecting different treatment for Israel, allowing them to commit war crimes, because they're ... special?

You do realize that having a different response to Israel doing something versus other countries is literally one of the definitions of antisemitism from the IHRA, right?

I wish the Israelis weren't intent on intentionally causing as much collateral damage as possible to intentionally thin the population to a minimum(An intention actually stated by Bibi.)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yes, the response to Israel doing something is indeed always more severe than when any other country does it.

As to war crimes, I've never seen any evidence of intentional targeting of civilians as a matter of policy. I've seen evidence of individual soldiers doing that, and that's happened in every war. It's why war is bad, and you shouldn't start wars.

There is not a single country on this planet which would tolerate an organization like Hamas remaining in power after an event like Oct 7.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Yes, the response to Israel doing something is indeed always more severe than when any other country does it.

This is you doing the bad faith thing again. You knew what I meant. I can back it up with facts. But instead you don't engage with something that you can't back up, and just ignore the point I'm making.

There is not a single country on this planet which would tolerate an organization like Hamas remaining in power after an event like Oct 7.

Too bad the IDF is really just an air force that hasn't yet learned the lesson that an air force can't hold territory, and the only strategy they have is bombing civilians when the militants absolutely own most of the engagements they get into with the conscript army.

In other words, Israel has to learn to live with Hamas, because they can't handle them any way other then through genocide.

Also, you don't make peace with your friends. You make peace with your enemies. That is why it is called making peace, and why it is hard.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

They’re in too deep. It’s like the magas with trump. Scary stuff

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

What are the specific demands Hamas has made that Blinken finds unacceptable?

According to the reports, Secretary of State Antony Blinken finds some of Hamas's latest demands regarding the proposed cease-fire agreement unacceptable, though the specific demands are not explicitly stated. However, we can infer a few key sticking points from the information provided:

  1. Hamas insists on a permanent cease-fire and complete Israeli withdrawal from Gaza before releasing the remaining hostages, while Israel aims to dismantle Hamas's military capabilities first.[1]

  2. Hamas fears that if it releases hostages during the initial six-week phase of the plan, Israel may resume hostilities once its most vulnerable captives are released.[1]

  3. Hamas has rejected key elements of the UN-backed truce deal that Israel had previously agreed to.[5][3]

  4. Hamas demands an end to the ongoing Israeli aggression and siege on Gaza as a precondition for entering into negotiations for a "complete agreement" that includes a comprehensive prisoner exchange deal.[5]

So while the specific unacceptable demands are not explicitly stated, Blinken seems to take issue with Hamas's insistence on permanent concessions upfront before any phased implementation, as well as their rejection of elements already agreed upon in the proposed deal.[1][3][5]

Citations: [1] Hamas Made Unacceptable Changes to Cease-Fire Plan, Blinken ... https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000009517335/blinken-gaza-israel-hamas-cease-fire.html [2] Blinken Casts Doubt on Cease-Fire Hopes After Hamas Responds https://www.bloomberg.com/tosv2.html?url=L25ld3MvYXJ0aWNsZXMvMjAyNC0wNi0xMi9ibGlua2VuLXNheXMtaGFtYXMtcy1jZWFzZS1maXJlLXJlc3BvbnNlLW1lYW5zLXdhci13aWxsLWNvbnRpbnVl&uuid=142470c8-28be-11ef-b9fe-c854ea576c23 [3] Hamas response to peace deal unworkable, warns Blinken https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/12/hamas-response-to-peace-deal-unworkable-warns-blinken/ [4] Blinken Says Hamas's Cease-Fire Response Means War Will ... https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/blinken-says-hamas-s-cease-fire-response-means-war-will-continue-1.2084228 [5] Hamas says it will not enter negotiations unless Israel stops war on ... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/30/hamas-says-it-will-not-enter-negotiations-unless-israel-stops-war-on-gaza

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

Including the resolution text:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_2735

The Security Council,

Reaffirming the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

Recalling all its relevant resolutions on the situation in the Middle East, including the Palestinian question,

Underscoring the importance of the ongoing diplomatic efforts by Egypt, Qatar, and the United States aimed at reaching a comprehensive ceasefire deal, consisting of three phases,

  1. Welcomes the new ceasefire proposal announced on May 31, which Israel accepted, calls upon Hamas to also accept it, and urges both parties to fully implement its terms without delay and without condition;
  1. Notes that the implementation of this proposal would enable the following outcomes to spread over three phases:

(a) Phase 1: an immediate, full, and complete ceasefire with the release of hostages including women, the elderly and the wounded, the return of the remains of some hostages who have been killed, the exchange of Palestinian prisoners, withdrawal of Israeli forces from the populated areas in Gaza, the return of Palestinian civilians to their homes and neighborhoods in all areas of Gaza, including in the north, as well as the safe and effective distribution of humanitarian assistance at scale throughout the Gaza Strip to all Palestinian civilians who need it, including housing units delivered by the international community;

(b) Phase 2: upon agreement of the parties, a permanent end to hostilities, in exchange for the release of all other hostages still in Gaza, and a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza; and

(c) Phase 3: the start of a major multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza and the return of the remains of any deceased hostages still in Gaza to their families;

  1. Underlines that the proposal says if the negotiations take longer than six weeks for phase one, the ceasefire will still continue as long as negotiations continue, and welcomes the readiness of the United States, Egypt, and Qatar to work to ensure negotiations keep going until all the agreements are reached and phase two is able to begin;
  1. Stresses the importance of the parties adhering to the terms of this proposal once agreed and calls upon all Member States and the United Nations to support its implementation;
  1. Rejects any attempt at demographic or territorial change in the Gaza Strip, including any actions that reduce the territory of Gaza;
  1. Reiterates its unwavering commitment to the vision of the two-State solution where two democratic States, Israel and Palestine, live side by side in peace within secure and recognized borders, consistent with international law and relevant UN resolutions, and in this regard stresses the importance of unifying the Gaza Strip with the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority;
  1. Decides to remain seized of the matter.
[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago

Oh cool, Blinken is sabotaging it so Bibi doesn't have to.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (4 children)

I genuinely don't understand what Hamas gains by continuing this conflict.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Really?

You know the human rights abuses and land grabbing happened prior to 10/7, right?

And they want the permanent ceasefire so that it finally stops.

If it's not an internationally recognized permanent ceasefire, Israel is going right back to what they were doing prior to 10/7.

Anything else is just Hamas giving up every bargaining chip they have for no gain...

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

There is a permanent ceasefire in the plan that Hamas rejected.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That Israel rejected, I think you mean.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Did you read the article? We are here talking about the most promising permanent ceasefire, supported by Egypt, Qatar, USA, and the UN, which Israel has not ruled out. Hamas is now drastically changing the terms to sabotage the ceasefire. It makes no sense to me. They seem to have the most to gain by ending this conflict.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

Did you read it?

But Hamas officials rejected his claim that they had made any changes to their previous stance in May and reiterated their accusation that Israel was blocking a deal. Osama Hamdan, Hamas’s representative in Lebanon, accused the top U.S. diplomat of seeing “things through an Israel lens.”

The cease-fire proposal would halt the fighting in Gaza immediately, and, after the release of some Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners, begin talks that could lead to a much longer or even permanent cease-fire and an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Qatar and Egypt have acted as intermediaries between Israel and Hamas, which do not communicate directly with each other.

Basem Naim, a Hamas spokesman, said on Wednesday that Hamas’s position remains that the deal must include guarantees of a permanent cease-fire and a complete Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, among other demands.

“This new offer includes no changes to our previous response to the offer submitted last May,” he said.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Always ask yourself, "Where's the money coming from."

Hamas is not being funded by Palestinians. Palestinians are broke as fuck.

Hamas is being funded by neighboring countries, who want to eliminate Israel. The same reason those countries invaded Israel the day after the British protectorate ended.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Hamas is being funded by neighboring countries

Cough

For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.

During his meetings in September with the Qatari officials, according to several people familiar with the secret discussions, the Mossad chief, David Barnea, was asked a question that had not been on the agenda: Did Israel want the payments to continue?

Mr. Netanyahu’s government had recently decided to continue the policy, so Mr. Barnea said yes. The Israeli government still welcomed the money from Doha.

Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Cough cough

Mr Levy - who was head of economic warfare in the Mossad, Israel's spy agency, until 2016 - says he told Mr Netanyahu many times that Israel had the means to crush Hamas, which controls Gaza, "by using only financial tools".

Mr Levy says he never got a response to his proposal from Mr Netanyahu. When asked if he considered there was a connection between Mr Netanyahu's alleged reluctance to deal with Hamas's finances and the 7 October attack, Mr Levy is unequivocal.

"Yes, of course," he says. "There is a very good chance that... we would [have] prevent[ed] a lot of the money" that had gone into Gaza, and that "the monster that Hamas built probably [wouldn't be] like the same monster that we faced on October 7th."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68318856

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

That's still "funded by neighboring countries"

The weapons Hamas is using were also smuggled in from neighboring countries as well. It's not like they bought them from the US or Israel.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Israel was already established a day after the British protectorate ended?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yes, that was established the day the protectorate ended.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

They literally told us the other day. Palestinian deaths help hamas. The leader was all for it

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (3 children)

The answer is that the more death and suffering they can cause to civilian Palestinians, the more they can drive a cultural wedge between Israel and the Arab nations. Their end goal here is to get a friendly government in, say, Egypt and then win a war to conquer Israel with that foreign support.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

Permanent vs temporary ceasefire isn't virtually identical lmao.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

I’m sure it’s all terrible. That being said, Blinken in the thumbnail looks esoterically scrumptious.

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