this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
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In my view as a long-time moderator, the purpose of moderation is conflict resolution and ensuring the sitewide rules are followed. As reported today by !vegan@lemmyworld, moderator Rooki's vision appears to be that their personal disagreement with someone else's position takes priority over the rules and is enough to remove comments in a community they don't moderate, remove its moderators for the comments, and effectively resort to hostile takeover by posting their own comment with an opposing view (archived here) and elevating it for visiblity.

The removed comments relate to vegan cat food. As seen in the modlog, Rooki removed a number of pretty balanced comments explaining that while there are problematic ways to feed cats vegan, if done properly, cats can live on vegan cat food. Though it is a controversial position even among vegans, there is scientific research supporting it, like this review from 2023 or the papers co-authored by professor Andrew Knight. These short videos could also work as a TL;DR of his knowledge on the matter. As noted on Wikipedia, some of the biggest animal advocacy organizations support the notion of vegan cat food, while others do not. Vegan pet food brands, including Ami, Evolution Diet, and Benevo have existed for years and are available throughout the world, clearly not prohibited by law in countries with laws against animal abuse.

To summarize, even if you don't agree with the position of vegan cat food being feasible, at the very least you have to acknowledge that the matter is not clear-cut. Moreover, there is no rule of lemmy.world that prohibits those types of conversations unless making a huge stretch to claim that it falls under violent content "promoting animal abuse" in the context of "excessive gore" and "dismemberment".

For the sake of the argument, even if we assume that the truth is fully on Rooki's side and discussions of vegan cat food is "being a troll and promoting killing pets", the sitewide rules would have to be updated to reflect this view, and create a dangerous precedent, enabling banning for making positive comments about junk food (killing yourself), being parents who smoke (killing your kids), being religious "because it's not scientific" and so on. Even reddit wouldn't go that far, and there are plenty of conversations on vegan cat food on reddit.

Given Rooki's behavior and that it has already resulted in forcing the vegan community out of lemmy.world and with more likely to follow, I believe the only right course of action is to remove them as a moderator to help restore the community's trust in the platform and reduce the likelihood of similar events in the future.

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[–] [email protected] 66 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (11 children)

What the fuck is "vegan cat food"? I sometimes can't understand people.

Ok. I get it. As people, we are bad. We mass husbandry just for food, modifying them with artificial selection for productivity. So I can understand veganism (although I am not vegan).

But have we really reached the point where we stop animals from eating meat? Either I'm a bigoted idiot or people are out of their minds.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Nobody is suggesting to stop animals in the wild eating meat or for incidental kills our furry companions make. Animals eat meat. It's natural. We breed animals as pets and feed them industrial amounts of food each year that we produce from other animals in very questionable ways. Not natural. The entire planet benefits from less meat being mass produced. It's not crazy to entertain some ideas that get us closer if they're proven equally nutritional.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Then we should be against pets too. If we are not okay to breeding animals, we should also discuss pets too. That's not natural either.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago

I'm not against befriending animals but breeding animals is shit.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago

I see a straw man argument.

The vegan position is that we should eliminate the use of animal products in the diets of the animals we see as companions.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Hey, check it out! I was right in thinking that the studies indicating good outcomes for the pets were poorly structured.

We found that there has been limited scientific study on the impact of vegan diets on cat and dog health. In addition, the studies that have been conducted tended to employ small sample sizes, with study designs which are considered less reliable in evidence-based practice. Whilst there have been several survey studies with larger sample sizes, these types of studies can be subject to selection bias based on the disposition of the respondents towards alternative diets

There aren’t studies saying that it is dangerous for the pets, which is a little surprising to me. Long story short the jury’s still out. But IMO it is completely fine for the admins of an instance to come down firmly against potentially animal-abusive practices, just as they would against political misinformation or nonconsensual pornography or what have you, regardless of how much in favor of those things are the members of the community promoting it.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago (6 children)

Is this all over a disagreement on whether a cat can survive on a vegan diet?

[–] [email protected] 37 points 7 months ago (2 children)

You’re not fully representing the situation. They banned vegans moderators from their own community based on their disagreement with scientific fact.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Yes, i wouldnt even stepped in if they didnt removed / added a warning about the risks of a vegan diet.

As a "clean" vegan diet without anything added to the food is poison for the cat as they are "Obligatory Carnivore" and need some Animal Proteins.

They wouldnt die immediatly but will cause malnutrition.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 months ago

Wtf is a β€œclean” vegan diet?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago

Technically it's not proteins, but specific amino acids (which, yes, are the building blocks of proteins). And amino acid deficiencies will absolutely kill cats. Many years ago my parents used to buy the cheapest garbage cat food available at the local grocery store. It was nutritionally deficient, and ended up killing our only cat that was strictly an indoor cat at the time. (I don't allow any of my cats outside, because I don't want them to be food for owls and coyotes.)

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Hi all,

For the sake of transparency, we are responding here, as remaining silent will also send a message to the community. We are actively reviewing all the information posted in this thread and all other linked sources. The entire team is being brought up to speed on the events that have taken place, but this process may take some time. We are all in different time zones, and many of us have professional and personal obligations that may take priority. Please bear with us, as there is a lot to review. We promise that after our review, we will respond to the community.

Thank you.

The FHF / LW Admin Team

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Any updates or this more of a week to month wait?

[–] [email protected] 24 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (5 children)

Looking at the modlog, Rooki reinstated the two !vegan moderators and restored one of the mods' comments about an hour ago. Rooki also edited their own comment referenced in the OP to say the following:

Edit: I am sorry, about my emotional decision i reinstated @Eevoltic and @[email protected] as mods After researching myself, many sites say its not healthy, one (1) research paper says it is at least NOT unhealthy, but it has few points of data.

Personally, I'm not fully satisfied if that is the end of it. The changes look like Rooki admitting that the issue is not clear-cut, but Rooki's conduct as a moderator has to reflect the rules, not something as arbitrary as Rooki's level of disagreement with someone's views at the given time.

Nobody should have to convince Rooki that something is not misinformation. Rooki (or any other instance moderator) must not even think of interfering on that basis. The word "misinformation" is not in the rules in any shape or form, and the only thing remotely close to it is Lemmy.World accepting that "The content provided on Lemmy.World is not necessarily factually true". If anything, the rules side more with the community moderators' judgement by saying "Your participation in individual communities will only be acceptable on the condition that you abide by their rules."

Edit: Added more to the sentence on Lemmy.World's rule related to misinformation.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I love how this comment is how I find out what's happened

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago

In the absence of announcements, my understanding is that it's highly unlikely that Rooki will be removed for the misconduct.

Firstly, it doesn't take a team of two admins and seven moderators nearly a week to investigate a matter involving a handful of comments and six users. Secondly, if it were a broader investigation into Rooki's overall conduct, you'd expect Rooki to at least be asked to pause their moderator activity for the duration, but Rooki continues to ban people and remove comments.

Ironically, one of the users banned by Rooki for trolling today is EndlessApollo, whose comment and subsequent ban by !vegan launched the whole chain of events.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 7 months ago (3 children)

I'm just here for the comments.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Rooki needs to held accountable for being subjective and for an abuse of power.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 months ago (3 children)

To what account? They are an instance admin, everyone is below them.

I'm not siding with anyone in this case, but the fact is it is a core feature of the fediverse: admins rule supreme and are only accountable to other admins. If users or communities don't like it, they could, and SHOULD move to another instance. If a suitable one is not available, they should make their own, and rule it as they please.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Going by this Lemmy.World chart, Rooki is an instance moderator standing below @[email protected] and @[email protected], so I'm appealing to them in the form of a public post so that the issue can't be swept under the rug.

If users or communities don’t like it, they could, and SHOULD move to another instance.

!vegan are already going for that option, but the problem is that if your written rules do not reflect your actual practices, it's a lot like backstabbing because you invite people to build communities over time only to go back on your rules and force the users to migrate, which leads to fragmentation and a lot of members lost in the process.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 7 months ago

Stop whining that people don't approve of you abusing your pets. Rooki did nothing wrong, they're just fighting vegan disinformation that harms pets

[–] [email protected] 20 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

What the hell. There's just a disagreement, no need to use admin override powers. Just let it be. Let them have their sub. It's not like they're recruiting for Al Qaeda.

I really don't give a damn about this particular fight about cat food. But I do worry about admins or mods who can't sometimes just let something slide. Like cops always looking to escalate

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago

What is with this? Why can't people be level headed and chill? Good god, people need to seriously touch some grass.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Make a community on a instance that doesn't metamoderate. You might have to start your own instance.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 7 months ago (3 children)

The topic of discussion should be more about the Lemmy World admins being biased and overstepping their boundaries. You wouldn't suggest that minorities should just create their own country when they're being oppressed by the majority.

However this is precisely why the instances veganism social, vegan theory club and lemmy.vg exist.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago (4 children)

vegantheoryclub.org is a vegan run instance that was created pretty much precisely because of shit like this.

I think it's worth communicating how this admin is using their powers, and to other people that the vegan community was taken over by an anti-vegan carnist for personal reasons. So that users can make up their minds over where they want to participate.

Outside of that I don't really care, I'm not optimistic they'll be reigned in and think lemmy.world is not a very well run server for reasons like this.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 months ago (6 children)

Yeah, but one of the admins there is the same way, and has directly used his admin position to ban people from the communities there based on unrelated matters on other instances. Hamid is worse than what this post is about.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 months ago (5 children)

CMV: behind "the_donald” subs, the next worst community to engage with is vegans. And as a Linux user, there's not a shortage of trash communities I could have chosen from.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 months ago

I hear chuds bitching about vegans way more than I the opposite.

I'm not even vegan or vegetarian, but the amount of bullshit whining and jokes about vegans by dipshits online is so fucking annoying.

I swear it's a psy-op by big beef lol

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