Meet people in real life doing real life things.
That's not just better for privacy, it's better for your life.
It's harder, but no amount of followers on twitter will help you move a couch.
this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2023
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OP's asking about the kind of communication that is needed from time to time to, for example, arrange a real-life meeting. They're not talking about social networks.
Do hobbies! Cooking classes! Join clubs!
And that might very well be exactly what OP is planning to do. They're not asking us how to spend their time properly, they're asking how to communicate with people on longer distance. Sometimes you need to let your friends know that the cooking class was cancelled or there's a new club you all could join. Your friends are not aroud you all the time. Using apps like Whatsapp or Telegram is more efficient than calling each one separately and offers the possibility of group communication. It's perfectly fine to use it for your friends group and it doesn't mean you have no real life.
And enjoy it while it lasts because no amount of 30 year olds will either
I guess this makes sense, even as a kid I was told I was such an adult. So I guess as a 30yo I’m actually more like a 45yo.
What are you doing with these people where such high level of privacy is required? Like I totally get wanting privacy but you’re being overly extreme.
Not wanting to use apps that are profiling you and your devices isn't a high level of privacy or being extreme though. It's just being a normal person.
That's not a common idea of what's "normal", no. And I don't mean anything bad by that - people give so few shits about privacy/security it's ridiculous, and I empathize with that, but it is what it is. The point of the thread is that OP's reluctance to use all the data stealer apps is isolating them to some degree, or at least requiring significant workarounds.
Yes, still the question "What are you doing with these people..." is not really relevant. OP's responsible approach to privacy is not something that needs questioning.
Why not? This person is cramming security apps down the throats of new people they meet.
Just wondering what kinds of conversations they are having with these people they hardly know that justifies needing this much privacy?
I feel like there is a time where worrying about privacy is valid. That time isn’t with people you just met. Especially when you’re just having light hearted conversations, because you know, you just met them?
I don't think they're concerned that some deep secret is going to get out. They're concerned that their communication is used for commercial purposes in a totally uncontrollable way.
OP’s responsible approach to privacy is not something that needs questioning.
That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it is objectively not normal.
You can believe that it should be normal, but that's a very different claim.
Yes, I don't think we're in disagreement here. I was just trying to tie it all to the beginning of the discussion.
Carrier pigeons. I haven’t gotten a response back in ages though.
Sorry. They are delicious, though.
I made a separate user profile just for my social pwas since I use grapheneos. They'll probably use discord or whatsapp so treat it like a public forum, stick with alias emails, fake info when creating, an always on vpn, and within a browser thats has privacy hardened features. If they want to talk more privately like through direct messaging and you trust them then try to convert them to signal otherwise simplex works too if you dont trust them with your personal phone number
Edit: Im not sure how instagram is these days but I guess you can make a burner using the same steps I described just dont actually post anything and dont add any identifying info haha. Have fun and good luck on the friend search
As Moxie Marlinspike once said, the fine line between facism and social democracy is choice. In order to exist in certain social groups, you have to expand your scope of choice to be able participate. In my experience using TextSecure/Signal for a decade and having convinced all of my friends/immediate family/significant others to use it, the majority of new people that I have encountered even with Signal installed on their phones, do not use it. It's unfortunate, but most people only care about privacy to a certain degree, if at all. What I usually do is bite the bullet with SMS for a bit. If things are going somewhere, I eventually convince them onto Signal. If things don't pan out, then not too much damage done.
Don't use Telegram for Privacy.
This video explains very well why:
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtRQKQkvUfE
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I'd just sms until you get to know someone better and can lightly convince them to use something like signal or they convince you to use whatever. You still need to live your life
Privacy is layered based on your threat model.
Sms isn't going to track you like some apps and while the content isnt encrypted by default it's not an issue if the information isn't secure.
More interesting conversations can be over signal and you can convince people overtime to switch.
Each method of communication can be viable depending on the situation.
Ultimately you will have to make some concessions in regards to privacy. Most people aren't going to install Signal just to talk to you because it does not fit their use case.
I'm also gen z and from the US, I go to university, and most people who I know use Whatsapp or Discord to communicate. While Whatsapp is not perfect, their messages are end-to-end encrypted, which is much better than most other mainstream platforms (I would honestly say that it is better than Telegram). Discord can at least be accessed through a browser with an email alias.
My preference for communication would be:
Best realistic case: Whatsapp or iMessage (if you have an Apple device)
Reluctantly use: Discord, Instagram, Telegram, SMS, any messenger that can be accessed through the browser without installing an app
I think this is the most real answer. It kinda is all about tradeoffs.
If creating connections is more valuable to you than using some unsavory social media, then you have your answer.
I also think it is pretty hard to actually reduce identifying informatiom from these apps. Just based on your social network, the piece can be fitted. In addition, your college gives up a ton of your identifying info (gmail, contracted apps...). I'm not sure there are perfect answers.
I'm going to quote another comment but not ping them; I don't want to argue with them; but instead provide counterpoints for the OP to consider.
Most people aren’t going to install Signal just to talk to you because it does not fit their use case.
This is false. While it does take more effort; it can be achieved. I can compose an SMS with an install link for the appropriate app-store and in-person assist you and tell you my ID on my privacy respecting apps of choice. Bluetooth transfers and QR codes also work too; so we can exchange other contact details as well.
I’m also gen z and from the US, I go to university, and most people who I know use Whatsapp or Discord to communicate.
Telegram is far superior to Whatsapp and close to Discord in features. Your generation is capable of using it; I see Gen Z on there all the time. Signal closely mimics iMessage in features; and it's available on both Android and iOS.
Bonus for the privacy-conscious; It has better privacy and cryptography. MProto isn't the most respected but it's sufficient for most day-to-day conversations.
Telegram is absolutely not vastly better than WhatsApp. Open Whisper Systems literally built the E2EE in WhatsApp. Its implementation of OTR predates signal.
Meanwhile, Telegram insists on rolling their own crypto and it’s closed source.
I think OP can and should try to get friends into Signal. But WhatsApp I’is almost certainly the answer to the OP. It offers well implemented proven off the record, E2EE communications, it’s widely adopted, cross platform. It’s miles better than SMS and Facebook or Instagram messenger or Snapchat. OP is looking for the best compromise, WhatsApp is it.
Lineagos run on an old Android phone with Aurora store to install and update play store apps. I just turn on the work profile when I check in and messages then turn it off. And it's not my main phone either so consequence is that I won't be instantly available, so ends up being more like email in terms of time it takes me to respond back. But, I am at least available on the preferred ways people want to communicate.
Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted
They asked about privacy, not security. WhatsApp is profiling you.
Except it is more private than alternatives like Instagram DMs and FB Messenger (ironically all by the same company), which are not e2ee.
@glacier's response pretty much covers it all, and it's confirmed in the Whatsapp Faq.
Sure, they could find out who you are based on someone who added you as contact. But if you don't have a FB account, or don't use your real name there, all they'll know is that you have a WhatsApp account, but won't see your messages, unless someone reports your messages. Sure, that's not as great as Signal, but much better than Discord/Slack/Snapchat/etc.
There's also the issue of trust. Can we trust Whatsapp when they claim it's e2ee? There's no way to verify, but the same can be said for other OSS alternatives; for instance, telegram servers are not open source and the client you download might not be the one you see on GitHub., So there's no guarantee your private key is not sent to the server at any point.
if you don’t have a FB account, or don’t use your real name there, all they’ll know is that you have a WhatsApp account, but won’t see your messages, unless someone reports your messages
They don't need your chit-chat to profile you. Metadata profiling is where it's at and that's why that whole e2ee introduction was just a marketing ruse. It's good enough for the NSA, so it's good enough for Meta. And Meta does collect that data even without an account.
but the same can be said for other OSS alternatives;
Well, your example is not open source, so yes, you cannot trust Telegram. Signal open sourced their server code some time ago. Even with FOSS you have to stay vigilant though and complete trustlessness is hardly achievable (do you trust your device? Your carrier? Your communication partner's? Etc.)
It's good enough for NSA to catch a terrorist, not necessarily useful enough for FB to produce targeted ads. If one plans to commit terrorism, Whatsapp is definitely not the best platform.
According to the article you linked: "In most cases, if metadata must be generated and/or used, it should be either 1) minimal or 2) encrypted so that it’s unreadable by the server handling the request(s)". So most of the important metadata from your files will be encrypted, which make them inaccessible by Whatsapp unless they decrypt it (thus breaking the e2ee promises). Maybe they'll know the file size or the file name, which you can easily change; what will they do with that?
So they are pretty much left with IP (if you don't use VPN) and phone numbers you have contacted (which is already know by Apple/Google, NSA, etc. if you have a phone number and use it for calls).
It’s good enough for NSA to catch a terrorist, not necessarily useful enough for FB to produce targeted ads.
I disagree. Identifying a terrorist and their whereabouts for targeted assassination is not that different to serving personalized ads. It's all about gathering information about the person.
True, file metadata is unaccessible like message content but I was referring to message metadata which covers ip address and phone number (as you mentioned) but also geo location (possibly live - WhatsApp is an application after all), when you communicate with whom how often. You can derive lots of info from that especially if your communication partners are more careless about their data and may maintain an active social media profile with Meta.
It's definitely easier than finding out info about someone whose life depends on not being found - like a terrorist.