this post was submitted on 27 Feb 2025
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A Comm for Historymemes

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

With English, it's even more fun, because it was (1) first lightly Celticized, then (2) lightly Romanized, then (3) significantly Romanized by a close cousin of the Germanicized Romance Language that had been extra Germanicized by Vikings, then (4) Roman-frosted with a bunch of technical jargon, some of which seeped into the upper registers of "regular" speech, and finally (5) liberally dusted with a sprinkle of "Literally Everything Else."

Oh, and spelling will have stopped being updated sometime between steps 3 and 4, and immediately before most of the vowels changed sounds, because skibidi toilet rizz.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 month ago (1 children)
  • Celts
  • Romans
  • Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Frisians
  • Norse
  • Normans (distinct from Parisian French)
  • Universities in England forbidding the teaching or even speaking of English
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Angles, Jutes, Saxons and Frisians should be listed first, that's the starting point, anglo-saxon.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

Romans came in the 1st century. Angles, etc, started coming over in the 4th century, but were only really successful after the Romans left about the middle of the 5th century.

Ah, but the Norse didn't come until the 9th century, fixed that.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I mean, I was messing around a bit to make it more fun, but yeah, you start with the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and a few Frisians invading and having to come to a sort of mutually intelligible Germanic dialect (to the extent they even did), adding some Celtic place names and lingering Roman verbiage and practices, though I guess they would have been dealing with the latter all along. There will be Scandinavian injections from subsequent raiders, especially in the North and East.

Then 1066 comes and the Normans, speaking Viking French invade and displace English as the language of court and bring in thousands of words that rework the vocabulary extensively, especially for uses that reveal the social divide (e.g. "cow" for the animal, "beef" for the food made from it). English survives but has several centuries with no one in power giving a single shit about how it changes.

Then the scholastic era begins and gives birth the Renaissance, and the printing press makes an appearance, so you've got increased literacy in Latin mostly in the early going, and the types of knowledge that are coming in often have no direct cognates in English, so English being English (and not French, LOL), they just say "fuck it, you're an English word too, now." Many of them die off or get relegated to narrow fields where the specificity remains valuable, but many stick around to offer polysyllabic nuance to English, especially among the literate class who will necessarily dominate what comes down to us in writing. This is also the gang that decided that if a rule of grammar works in Latin, it should in English, leading to idiocies like "don't split your infinitives." Why the fuck not, Clarence or Godfrey or whoever? The infinitive is already two different words, Godfrey, and it is exceedingly easy to carefully split it and preserve or even increase the effectiveness of the communication. Fuck you, Godfrey. 😂

The Great Vowel shift occurs over this period as well, for unknown reasons (some have hypothesized it was simply younger generations wanting to distinguish themselves from elders and newcomers to London), and unfortunately just at the time when people decided the spelling should become more consistent, so while most English words have some reason for being spelled how they are, you often have to do some historical spelunking to figure out what those reasons are, and it's only marginally helpful to know that rough and through used to rhyme.

Finally, as English becomes a language of colonization and empire, influences come from everywhere, and the general trend of adopting new items and new ideas with something like their original "foreign" term continues at an accelerated pace. Even as the one empire faded, a new English-speaking hegemon was emerging, one who if anything was somehow even less concerned about linguistic purity.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

I'm having a great vowel shift right now!

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Or as a classical philologist I know likes to say:

(translated from German) „English? You mean this regional third-class Latin dialect?“

(He is a man with strong opinions, who speaks Latin basically fluent, English not so much)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

LOL, which is funny because it's really more like a regional third-class German dialect with the "Latin Vocabulary Add-on Package." The rules, especially as actually spoken, are much more German, and while you can calculate the actual number many different ways, of the most commonly spoken English words, the Germanic ones dominate.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

And then other languages are taking english words

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I'm a European who visits Houston from time to time. And once I had this Uber driver who was very interested in European history. We talked about how the various European languages related to each other, and he said something that makes France make sense: "French is the result og Germanic people trying to speak Latin"

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

But French started as celts (Gauls) trying to speak Latin, the germanic influence on it came later through the Franks.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Maybe he said Gauls and I remember it incorrectly.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

We could have had the langue d’Oc.

Instead the parisians forced the langue d’Oïl (modern french) upon us.

Dark Historytechnically this is due to cultural genocide by the french government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Ooh, thanks for the rec. Subbed and crossposted!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Yoooo, same - love finding new subs, thanks!