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Do they think Trump would be better than Biden when it comes to Palestinians? The Trump that moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to signal that it was an Israeli city?
I'll blame each and every eligible person who didn't show up to vote for him, regardless of what their excuse is. This isn't the time to be playing around.
But you won't blame the Biden administration for disregarding the wishes of their constituents?
Do you (or anyone who thinks not voting for Biden is a smart thing) think that Trump would do anything differently? Because those are the two choices. If you don't vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump by taking away votes from Biden... unless you live in a blue or red state where your vote doesn't matter anyway.
I do blame Biden for how he is handling this situation. However, I am smart enough to understand that there is more than one situation that a president has to handle while in office. For the most part, Biden has honored the wishes of me as a constituent. If the only thing you care about in life is how the President of the US handles a conflict on the other side of the world, as opposed to the US economy, civil rights in the US, US Supreme Court justices, US circuit court judges, environmental policy in the US, etc., then that is your right as a voter. I hate what is going on over in Gaza (and the region in general), but I also care about is going on in the country I live in.
If you don’t vote for Biden then you are either voting for Trump or helping Trump
I'm so tired of this rhetoric. Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them. Americans should not be strong armed into voting for a candidate they don't actually want.
Let people vote for who they believe in without shaming them.
Voting is like freedom of speech. Everyone is free to vote for whoever they want, but they aren't immune from criticism for how they vote. If someone votes for a guy who says he'll "be a dictator on day one" and encourage Russia to "do whatever the hell they want", I'm gonna shame that person for supporting such an insupportable candidate who espouses such insane ideas.
To be clear, I was directly responding to someone who was claiming that not voting for Biden is like voting for Trump. I hate that rhetoric and it's not true. If you want to blame someone for Trump winning, you blame the people that voted for him.
Sure, but what I'd say is I'll still say in this fricken 2 party system, you also have to justify not going for the lesser of two evils, however you define that. And if your position is "I want someone to stop Israel continuing their war on Hamas", you also have to contend with the idea that neither option is likely to do what you want. This just reads to me like throwing a fit that mommy brought you peas instead of beans with your dinner and saying you want daddy, when he's not bringing any food at all.
If you are eligible to vote, and don't, that is the same as a vote for the winner - whoever that is.
Versus someone who would be even worse for Palestinians and Americans? No, I won't blame Biden if people let Trump in over the issue of Palestine. Because it means they were fast asleep between 2016 and 2020.
Thats what fucking matters. Do you want to fucking beat Trump or not? Whats your priority here? Running Biden or beating Trump? You have to pick one.
There is a genocide going on now not later. Joe Biden has had multiple opportunities to stop the genocide he is currently supporting and has not. This isn't a hypothetical. If Israel is allowed to continue, by April, there won't be a Palestinian people in Gaza to consider. They'll have been starved/ bombed to death, by Israel with the explicit support of Joe Biden.
Do you not fucking get it?
There's another genocide going on now in the U.S. that people like you don't seem to care about and which Trump will absolutely make far worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_genocide#United_States
Because the genocide of queer people in the U.S. apparently is far less important and if Trump gets into office, has already planned and made clear that it will be far worse.
But who cares about queer people in America, am I right? Just let them die.
So we're just completely changing the subject?
Just seriously ask yourself if you want Trump to be president again. If the answer to this is "No", the look at the data and see how Joe Biden is doing. He's doing fucking horribly. He's losing this election and we haven't even had the convention yet. His support is very low and is dropping. If you insist on proceeding with Biden as candidate, you are insisting on a losing proposition.
If you are concerned about queer rights, you better figure out a better option than Biden, because by the numbers, he's not going to win in November.
Pointing out that you are ignoring a genocide in the U.S. that Trump and his people want to make worse is not changing the subject. It's pointing out that you're ignoring a genocide. Which you are.
But please tell me who I should vote for to stop that genocide. Give the name of the candidate that would get enough votes to beat Trump.
Because if you wanted someone other than Biden, you shouldn't have waited until after the primaries started.
But go ahead- give me a name.
Millions of Palestinians are facing starvation right now. They will be dying en-masse before the end of March if something doesn't change. Joe Biden is supporting this. He just lost There is no equivalence happening within the borders of the United States, except maybe our prison system. Yes the Republicans are setting the ground work for a genocide of queer people in this country. We have to stop them. Insisting that we support a candidate who is clearly losing the election is no way to do this. We can't afford to lose this election and insisting that Biden be the nominee is insisting we lose this election.
Uncommitted just won two delegates in Michigan. Biden will not win this election unless he massively shifts his position on Gaza.
You haven't given me a name.
People like you never give me a name.
If we have to stop them, who should I vote for instead of Biden?
You haven’t given me a name.
People like you never give me a name.
What are you on about? Stop changing the point of the conversation.No one is personally attacking you. We're talking about what its going to take to keep Trump out of office in 2024, and we disagree about some key points. Why are you making this about you? How narcissist are you? Its creepy and weird. Stick to the points of the conversation please.
like you
And what is that? An advocate for peace and justice? Someone who wants to not have Trump in 2024, no matter what (even if that means Biden isn't the nominee)? What assumptions are you making?
I haven't changed the conversation at all and never said you are attacking me.
Yet again, who should I vote for? Why can't you tell me? All you're telling me is not Biden. Fine. So who?
Protecting the White House from Trump is more important than anything else going on in the World.
The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, "Don't permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant." Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that's not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.
The top of the wishlist of any reasonable and rational American should be, “Don’t permit a fascist demagogue to become a petty tyrant.” Biden fulfills that order handily, and if that’s not enough for someone to get them to vote for him, then the blame lies with that voter.
Right now, today, supporting Biden any further is handing Trump a W.
Biden has lost the election at this point. It would be the biggest election upset of ALL TIME if he came back to win it. No incumbent this far down in the polling has EVER won an election.
If you truly want to stop Trump, stop brow beating people into supporting a lost cause and work to have a conversation around how we can get a better candidate. I think Shawn Fein.
Oh god, finally gave a name. Who the hell is Shawn Fein? If I haven't already heard of them, it's a lost cause too - because they have no brand recognition. This is the dilemma and one I've been banging on about since before Obama. It's kind of insane the Democratic party seems to hope for a repeat of that once in a lifetime basically out of nowhere candidate / win. For reasons I don't get, Democrats are not building up people in advance to be candidates. So people have at least heard of them.
The problem is as far as I know there aren't any well known middle aged democrats who could run that have any national stance. Schumer is also too old, Bernie is also too old, and then there's the sexism that makes me question if Warren could run, and then there's the racism that makes Kamala and Cortez pretty unlikely to get far either.
I thought the entire four years that Democrats needed to have someone in the news and convince Biden to back them a year ago. That didn't happen. We already lost this years ago if Biden can't win it. I'm just still amazed that there's any support for Trump (well, ever, but certainly after the facts of his first term).
And Obama solidly lost his election against Romney if you looked at polls this far out. A strong case can be made that polls at this point are not predictive.
I think Shawn Fein.
Ignoring the fact that mine and most American's immediate reaction to this is "Who?", the fact that he has zero experience in elected office will be disqualifying to most people. He seems like a decent guy, and I'd love to see him in some sort of office some day, but this is not a serious suggestion.
Also, to quote him:
Proud to cast my vote for President @JoeBiden today, the first day of early in-person voting in the state of Michigan!
Or the Democratic establishment rigging a primary in 2020, and then forgoing one in 2024, to have one of the least democratic races of all time?
If this was an election in Turkey, the US would be imposing sanctions.
Looks like the US is going to get some tough love.
Turns out you can't just fund, supply and cast UN vetoes in support of the genocide of an entire people and still get unconditional support at the ballot box, whoda thunkit.
And yes, the consequences are going to be hideous.
I guess you should have thought of that, what with everyone telling you over and over and over.
Cabin in the Woods moment, and you brought it on yourselves.
Does this mean that the victims of the next genocide the democrats preside over can blame you for supporting the last one unconditionally?
No, I will blame them. Make your threats to Biden all you want, put all the pressure on him to stop supporting the genocide, absolutely. But come election day if you don't realize that Biden, even as is, is still a far, far better option than Trump, then yes anyone staying home over this is absolutely partially to blame.
Dumb gotta dumb. They're willing to burn their country to the ground for something happening in another country. Under any other time, I'd be ok with it, but trump is an existential threat to everything the country stands for and will bathe in it's smouldering ashes. Reap what you fucking sow.
Statistically, your one vote is as meaningful whether you vote for a major party or a third party.
You don't vote to get your preferred candidate in. You vote to pull the one that might closer to where you want them.
Voting for Biden is voting for a genocide, whether you want it to be or not. Assuming Biden gets in, all you've done is tell the DNC that their voter base actually don't care all that much about genocide.
Filmmaker and Michigan native Michael Moore agreed that Biden’s stance on the ongoing slaughter in Gaza could easily cost him the state, and in turn, the entire election. In a recent interview with CNN’s Abby Phillip, Moore said “I’ve been saying this month that he’s going to cost himself the election. …If Trump has any chance, it’s the decision that [Biden’s] made to embrace slaughter, carpet bombing, babies in incubators dead because they cut off the electricity, on and on and on.”
Inb4 Michael fucking Moore gets accused of being a conservative. You know it's going to happen.
This whole thing is so depressing. Not Gaza, which is a tragedy, but the conversation around it. People who have family members starving and dying right now are upset, and there is zero empathy for them. Just anger directed at them by people who are (or were) ostensibly on their side.
I will not be commenting further in this thread because it belongs in !politics and I'm out of antidepressants but not booze.
It's difficult. On one hand, it is a fucking atrocity, and it's hard to blame people for being upset that someone with the power to at least lessen the harm, isn't.
But on the other hand, ensuring the greater evil gets in does nothing. No Palestinians are saved by a Trump presidency - and it's very likely that MORE will die compared to a Biden administration, considering Trump's all-in attitude with Netanyahu. Not only are no Palestinians saved, but many Ukrainians, Americans, and Taiwanese will likely suffer and die in not inconsiderable numbers directly due to a Trump presidency.
As such, it's difficult to look at someone grieving and saying "Everyone's throat should be cut, not just my son's!" and react with sympathy when that has very real effects on whether or not everyone's throat gets cut.
I will absolutely blame the voters, because it'd literally be their fault. That's how elections work.
I guess at the basic level Biden must think the pro Israel vote is bigger than the gaza vote?