this post was submitted on 09 Mar 2024
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[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 year ago (6 children)

The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What's that from? The Simpsons?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Secret War of Lisa Simpson, Season 8, Episode 25. First aired in 1997.

Clip. Voiced by Willem Dafoe.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes. I’m a man of few words.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I think they are perfectly cromulent words.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Perhaps instead we could just restructure our epistemically confabulated reality in a way that doesn't inevitably lead to unnecessary conflict due to diverging models that haven't grown the necessary priors to peacefully allow comprehension and the ability exist simultaneously.

breath

We are finally coming to comprehend how our brains work, and how intelligent systems generally work at any scale, in any ecosystem. Subconsciously enacted social systems included.

We're seeing developments that make me extremely optimistic, even if everything else is currently on fire. We just need a few more years without self focused turds blowing up the world.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

We are finally coming to comprehend how our brains work, and how intelligent systems generally work at any scale, in any ecosystem.

Who told you that?

(If you don't mean ML-based things fallaciously called "AI", then ignore this)

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (12 children)

robots, satellites, or for that matter fighter jets or artillery can't hold ground, all these units work in support of infantry. the future belongs to what we already have: combined arms warfare

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[–] [email protected] 60 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Can we please just fight all of our wars on the moon with giant robots like God intended?

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Drones currently outpace their countermeasurs. This will definitely not be a thing forever. I think the effectiveness of cheap drones will go down as be countermeasures are invented.

We already see new very effective military drone jammers starting to come out

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Onboard AI guidance is not difficult.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Both of you are right.

It's difficult, but how difficult depends on the task you set. If the task is "maintain manually initiated target lock on a clearly defined object on an empty field, despite the communications link breaking for 10 seconds" -> it is "give a team of coders half a year" difficult. It's been solved before, the solution just needs re-inventing and porting to a different platform.

If it's "identify whether an object is military, whether it is frienly or hostile, consider if it's worth attacking, and attack a camouflaged target in a dense forest", then it's currently not worth trying.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Tracking a moving object in realtime with video is a standard task for a machine learning engineer. You can do it on an embedded platform with ML hardware support. I don't know what hardware newer Lancets use but they can already do it according from developer reports from Telegram channels like e.g Разработчик БПЛА.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Honestly, I was just objecting to the use of "AI". We've had both fire and forget and loitering munitions for decades now, neither of which use ML. Will it happen? Sure. For now, ML/AI is too unreliable to be trusted in a deployed direct attack platform, and we dont have computing hardware powerful enough to run ML models that we can jam in a missile.

(Though yeah we run tons of models against drone data feeds, none of those are done onboard...)

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A combination of GPS, or even inertial based guidance to get them to the target area and then some simple vehicle / object identification, I'd think those are possible.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

GPS is usually the first thing to be jammed in the battlefield.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

GPS is useful, but not required for operation. Inertial guidance, and ground tracking cameras can easily maintain a good position sense, while completely RF passive. This is also already normal on many toy drones.

You would also want to jam it over a large area. That jamming is akin to a "kick me" sign, in neon lights.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Edit, apparently I'm an idiot and my ability to tell truth from fiction is a lot worse than I thought.

In my defence however, all the parts are completely viable. I also saw it mixed in with Boston dynamics videos.

I'll leave the original comment for context of my folly.

The US already has them.

There are single shot drones, designed to be deployed into a building, or cave system. They then use cameras etc to navigate, while running face recognition. When they find their target, they fly just in front of it. The shaped C4 charge is designed to reduce their head to red mist, while not risking those close by.

AI + cheap drones will completely change warfare. Probably on the same level as the tank, or machine gun.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The US already has them.

Do you have a source for this? These sound uncannily close to the Slaughterbots short film...

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can't be very knowledgeable on the topic.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I will be very suprised if this isn't already happening.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (11 children)

The only reliable counter to a drone is likely another drone.

I suspect Peter F Hamilton got it close, in the Confederation series, with WASPs. They are space based weapon platforms. They carry a mix of offensive and defensive subsystems, and operate with swarm logic.

I could easily see a larger drone carrying a swarm of 1 shot micro drones. When close, some would be sacrificed to get better sensor data, others would go on the attack. Conversely, a defensive target would launch their own swarm. It's goal would be to stop the attackers getting a good shot on a high value target. It might also counterattack, either against the mother ship drone, or backtracking to find the launch site.

Jamming would also be part of this. A jammer could easily cut off the swarm from external data sources. Live satellite or remote surveillance systems would be cut. Point to point lasers are far harder, as are burst transmissions. Local sensor drones could easily punch short range data back, or paint targets, until they are destroyed by defensive systems.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There are in fact a huge number of reliable counters to drones, including but not limited to anti-aircraft gun systems, anti-aircraft lasers, RF jamming devices (especially effective against cheap/makeshift drones), and several more. Drones are currently an emergent threat without a robust countermeasure scheme, but given their massive role in the Ukraine war that is not going to go unaddressed for long. From a purely mechanical standpoint, small drone munitions are also physically very vulnerable, making them readily destroyed by anti-air autocannon fire or even laser weapons if you assume RF jamming will not solve the problem.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Between GPS (jammable but likely gets you into the target area), dead reckoning, optical flow sensors and increasingly impressive onboard camera processing, RF jamming will soon be irrelevant.

Almost a decade ago I was flying agricultural mapping missions that were 99% autonomous, and the parts that weren't were problems a military drone doesn't have (soft launch and landing)

The clear counter is autocannons, likely fully automated themselves to manage large swarms. The other would be cheap anti-drone missiles that either are basically a drone themselves or a glorified model rocket. Possibly tiny, cheap and fast interceptors launched from fixed-wing drones. The weak point of drones is literally their physical weakness.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (16 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7ym1zkda8

Anti-air guns are the countermeasure. RADAR good enough to detect drones + an aimbot and programmable air-burst round to "shotgun" your pellets to damage those soft plastic bits.

We're going back to WW2 tech. AA guns were considered obsolete because Helicopters + Missiles had more range. But now we need to build cheaper AA Guns for the anti-drone role.

AA Guns are also useful vs infantry, so in an infantry vs infantry fight, having an AA Gun platform will be useful even without any drones around. Airburst and rapid fire is always useful, and I expect the computers that make RADAR possible will be far cheaper today than decades past.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Anyone have a non paywalled or more info on the subject? All signs point towards an impending global war and I’d like to be as prepared as possible.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

PRECISION-GUIDED weapons first appeared in their modern form on the battlefield in Vietnam a little over 50 years ago. As armed forces have strived ever since for accuracy and destructiveness, the cost of such weapons has soared. America’s gps-guided artillery shells cost $100,000 a time. Because smart weapons are expensive, they are scarce. That is why European countries ran out of them in Libya in 2011. Israel, more eager to conserve its stockpiles than avoid collateral damage, has rained dumb bombs on Gaza. What, though, if you could combine precision and abundance?

For the first time in the history of warfare that question is being answered on the battlefields of Ukraine. Our report this week shows how first-person view (FPV) drones are mushrooming along the front lines. They are small, cheap, explosives-laden aircraft adapted from consumer models, and they are making a soldier’s life even more dangerous. These drones slip into tank turrets or dugouts. They loiter and pursue their quarry before going for the kill. They are inflicting a heavy toll on infantry and armour.

The war is also making FPV drones and their maritime cousins ubiquitous. January saw 3,000 verified FPV drone strikes. This week Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, created the Unmanned Systems Force, dedicated to drone warfare. In 2024 Ukraine is on track to build 1m-2m drones. Astonishingly, that will match Ukraine’s reduced consumption of shells (which is down because Republicans in Congress are shamefully denying Ukraine the supplies it needs).

The drone is not a wonder weapon—no such thing exists. It matters because it embodies big trends in war: a shift towards small, cheap and disposable weapons; the increasing use of consumer technology; and the drift towards autonomy in battle. Because of these trends, drone technology will spread rapidly from armies to militias, terrorists and criminals. And it will improve not at the budget-cycle pace of the military-industrial complex, but with the break-things urgency of consumer electronics.

Basic FPV drones are revolutionarily simple. The descendants of racing quadcopters, built from off-the-shelf components, they can cost as little as several hundred dollars. FPV drones tend to have short ranges, carry small payloads and struggle in bad weather. For those reasons they will not (yet) replace artillery. But they can still do a lot of damage. In one week last autumn Ukrainian drones helped destroy 75 Russian tanks and 101 big guns, among much else. Russia has its own fpv drones, though they tend to target dugouts, trenches and soldiers. Drones help explain why both sides find it so hard to mount offensives.

The exponential growth in the number of Russian and Ukrainian drones points to a second trend. They are inspired by and adapted from widely available consumer technology. Not only in Ukraine but also in Myanmar, where rebels have routed government forces in recent days, volunteers can use 3D printers to make key components and assemble airframes in small workshops. Unfortunately, criminal groups and terrorists are unlikely to be far behind the militias.

This reflects a broad democratisation of precision weapons. In Yemen the Houthi rebel group has used cheap Iranian guidance kits to build anti-ship missiles that are posing a deadly threat to commercial vessels in the Red Sea. Iran itself has shown how an assortment of long-range strike drones and ballistic missiles can have a geopolitical effect that far outweighs their cost. Even if the kit needed to overcome anti-drone jamming greatly raises the cost of the weapons, as some predict, they will still count as transformationally cheap.

The reason goes back to consumer electronics, which propel innovation at a blistering pace as capabilities accumulate in every product cycle. That poses problems of ethics as well as obsolescence. There will not always be time to subject novel weapons to the testing that Western countries aim for in peacetime and that is required by the Geneva Conventions.

Innovation also leads to the last trend, autonomy. Today, fpv drone use is limited by the supply of skilled pilots and by the effects of jamming, which can sever the connection between a drone and its operator. To overcome these problems, Russia and Ukraine are experimenting with autonomous navigation and target recognition. Artificial intelligence has been available in consumer drones for years and is improving rapidly.

A degree of autonomy has existed on high-end munitions for years and on cruise missiles for decades. The novelty is that cheap microchips and software will let intelligence sit inside millions of low-end munitions that are saturating the battlefield. The side that masters autonomy at scale in Ukraine first could enjoy a temporary but decisive advantage in firepower—a necessary condition for any breakthrough.

Western countries have been slow to absorb these lessons. Simple and cheap weapons will not replace big, high-end platforms, but they will complement them. The Pentagon is belatedly embarking on Replicator, an initiative to build thousands of low-cost drones and munitions able to take on China’s enormous forces. Europe is even further behind. Its ministers and generals increasingly believe that they could face another major European war by the end of the decade. If so, investment in low-end drones needs to grow urgently. Moreover, ubiquitous drones will require ubiquitous defences—not just on battlefields but also in cities at peace. Kalashnikovs in the skies

Intelligent drones will also raise questions about how armies wage war and whether humans can control the battlefield. As drones multiply, self-co-ordinating swarms will become possible. Humans will struggle to monitor and understand their engagements, let alone authorise them.

America and its allies must prepare for a world in which rapidly improving military capabilities spread more quickly and more widely. As the skies over Ukraine fill with expendable weapons that marry precision and firepower, they serve as a warning. Mass-produced hunter-killer aircraft are already reshaping the balance between humans and technology in war. ■

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

Better brush up on my e-sports skillz, then.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Bombs strapped to remote controlled planes aren't the weapons of the future. The American military has fucking autonomous robot dogs that carry machine guns and have thermal imaging sensors.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

I disagree. Ukrainian style suicide drones combined with autonomous robot dogs carrying guns with thermal sensors are the weapons of the future, and it is a horrifying future. Governments will absolutely use both.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You mean Ukraine was just a proving ground for drone warfare? Shocking.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Every war is a proving ground, an occasion for making bets, and a source of perverted entertainment for the rest of the world.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I have accidentally seen far too many videos from [email protected] to know that these things are fucking brutal.

Knowing full well that on a metric of pure numbers, these don't compare to other weapons of war, but there's something about the personal nature of these fuckers that are just so fucking soul-destroying.

Those videos are definitely NSFL (and are usually marked as such, in fairness), but most of them have zoomed-in, full-screen footage of the carnage they leave behind. They are mostly individual or 2-3 individuals hiding/cowering alone in a trench, blown to literal pieces and left dying, completely unaware that somewhere on the other end of that drone is an operator watching their final excruciating moments of life.

It is one thing to be operating a long-range artillery weapon, or a drone flying at several thousand feet firing long-range missiles, or being in a close-combat life-or-death situation, but it's a completely different experience watching a shell drop on a defenseless, terrified and cowering human (likely coerced into war or forcibly compelled to the front-line) as if you're 10 fucking feet above them, while yourself are completely out of immediate harm.

Fuck war, but especially fuck these drones in particular.

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