For context: The thread was about why people hate Hexbear and Lemmygrad instances
this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2023
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Mildly Infuriating
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I've always found it odd why we don't treat communism in the same vein as Nazism.
They're both horrific ideologies that have led to the deaths of millions, but one is considered trendy.
They are radically different but authoritarians have corrupted both to be the same brute force regime. Communism shouldn't have any specific single leader. It should be a conference of lots of little communities that participate together to make a state work. Sadly authoritarian ideals corrupt politics and make people want to rule that should never be leaders in the first place. Those leaders install their own friends who run the government into the ground - and it's the government model that is to blame?
communism has somehow become synonymous with marxism-leninism, it's very sad
"Marxism" 😀
"-Leninism" 😬
The .ml suffix isn't helping
.ml = Mali.
I know it was the haunt of scammers when it was a free domain, but the government of Mali have reassigned management now so hopefully it will be less problematic as time goes on.
afaih, one of the reasons that lemmy.ml chose their domain suffix actually was for this reason, though I am unsure how much weight it had on their decision.
Edit: As @[email protected] mentioned, this is mostly apocryphal.
@moosetwin I know that's the rumour but I suspect they were picking out of a very small pool of free domains and the free part had a lot more to do with it.
Saying the Mali suffix "means" Marxist Leninism is a bit like saying your .com stands for Capitalism Only Mate. I mean sure it does but only in your own mind, not irl.
Understood, thank you for your response.
well, .com was already taken so 🤷.
Yes, because it leaves itself so prone to authoritarian takeover. As I’ve said before, this is a feature of communism, not a bug. A single, one-party “transitional” government is intended. You might as well just put up a sign that says “Dictator Wanted.” This is why there isn’t a single instance of communism on a nation-state scale that hasn’t quickly devolved into an authoritarian state. It’s not hard to understand this. Your government model has to account for the reality that people are going to disagree on things and faction out. Your model has to be able to manage that process. Communism insists everyone adhere to the same ideology, and those that don’t just get “re-educated.” It’s a horrible ideology, a horrible government model; naïve utopian fantasy at best, cynical authoritarian scheme at worst.
You are spot on on just about everything. The only thing I take issue with is saying that both werr corrupted by authoritarians. Fascism doesn't exist without authoritarians. It's just a shame that in America, especially as well as plenty of other places in the west, we are miseducated if we are educated at all on the subject.
I think there is a model of fascism that, when a dictator is removed from the scenario, looks like a corporate autocracy. Late stage capitalism, like a corporate Cyberpunk dystopia, is what happens when power isn't seized by a megalomaniac. Unfortunately corporations are documented to gather the psychotically inclined within its upper echelons so any and all rulings are definitely going to be corrupted. At least communism allows voting for leaders and not private decisions without review like private enterprise.
That still ends up with local dictators and oligarchs. Yes, you're not likely to end up with one global dictator etc. but ultimately would not be all that different in the long run. It's exactly what they want a return to. Feudalism.
Communism scales horribly and practically begs for intolerant authoritarians to take over because the structure promotes compromise and compromising with intolerance ends up with intolerance. It works well when a small group voluntarily creates a small commune and everyone is on the same page. Everyone being able to see the overall community is pretty important for them to see how they fit in.
Capitalism also scales terribly, but when approached as a competition that requires regulation at least it can scale better because everyone can be watchful of bad actors. It still scales poorly because large companies can gain undo influence over government, but at least that influence tends to be about business and profit and not ethnic cleansing of the 'wrong people' that tends to be inherent to large scale communism. Yeah, that can also happen for profit with capitalism too, but again the acknowledgement of necessary regulations can mitigate that for the most part.
Everything tends to fall apart at a large enough scale though.
I think you're talking about democracy there, not capitalism?
If we look at a country with capitalism and not democracy (e.g UAE) I don't think it has any protective effect on transparency.
If the model realized at scale repeatedly results in the same or similar effects, maybe there is something wrong with the model.
(Be those inherent mechanical flaws, flaws of ignoring parts of human nature, flaws of a model designed to work in a vacuum, or flaws of intricate and fragile necessary rules)
There's no difference between them. That's the thing. Two words for the same pile of shit.
It's not "considered trendy", your understanding of communism – an economic system – is just conflated with authoritarianism – a political system. You can advocate for one without advocating for the other.
That said, capitalism also leads to the deaths of millions, but somehow that's just an unquestionable fact of life.
I honestly don't see how the idea of everyone getting an equal share is an extremist idea in the same vein as a racist ideology. I'm also unsure why you're being downvoted for pointing out the obvious there.
Oh gee if only there was a single example of communists that actually acted on some of these purported principles instead of turning authoritarian the first chance they get
No, social democracies don’t count. They are what tankies SHOULD strive for, instead of sucking off… checks notes famous beacons of liberty Russia and China.
Ok.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_Nepal
Perhaps it's us greedy humans that's the issue and the economic model only limits how completely we can fuck things up. Badly when it's capitalism and really badly with communism.
Citation needed.
https://mronline.org/2019/01/15/britain-robbed-india-of-45-trillion-thence-1-8-billion-indians-died-from-deprivation/
There's a couple
https://homework.study.com/explanation/how-many-people-died-under-the-rule-of-the-british-east-india-company.html
Here's a couple more.
20-50k due to homeless per year in just one capitalist country: https://nhchc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Section-1-Toolkit.pdf
And then there's the 250,000 expected per year and increasing due to climate change from capitalism wanting to not do anything to hurt profits of big oil : https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/climate-change-and-health
That's me lazily grabbing things. I could do this all day but it's depressing as fuck and it won't stop you tongue fucking a corpo's asshole so it seems pointless. Hope that helped!
Every single person who's died of hunger
Wait until you read about communist famines.
Those were not on purpose. But were definitely made worse through the actions of dogmatic uneducated authoritarians much like capitalism. However, the fact that it happened to leninists involuntarily doesn't justify capitalist doing it purposefully.
Holodomor
It wasn't man-made lol. There were famines going on in the United States too. Dust bowl anyone? And I said they exacerbated it. You simply proved my own point for me and failed to state your case.
Let me give you some advice on debating or trying to discuss things. You should refrain from it.
Holy shit you tankies are on so much copium it’s hilarious.
The dust bowl and the holodomor did not, in fact, coincide. They occured in seperate years, for separate reasons, and shockingly you seem to have excluded the drastically lower death rates of the dust bowl and the american great depression as a whole? It was terrible and caused great unnecessary suffering, but there’s no parallel to the intentional deaths of millions.
Like come on, the Bengal famine is RIGHT THERE for you to make some sort attempt at a valid argument, but you just have to go “AMERIKA BAD >:(“ every two milliseconds.
Both the Bengal Famine and the Holodomor have at least one major fact in common. You’d have to be a complete idiot to be either the British or Soviet government and not realize your response will lead to the deaths of millions. I don’t think Churchill or the brits were idiots, and as undeniably terrible as Stalin was I don’t think the inevitable death of millions of ukranians was something he could overlook either.
You mouth breathers always act so goddamn smug about the utter nonsense spewing out of your ass.
Lol no wrong like confidently wrong. I'm further from a tankie than you are. In fact, it's not possible to get much farther from tankie than someone like myself. I'm simply pointing out your ignorant bullshit. To which you can't defend. I'd be incensed. But there's no point. And I'm used to kiddies like yourself. Learning a new term like tanky and then just going crazy using it against everyone you don't like.
I literally pointed out that they made their part of the GLOBAL famine worse. Promoting and listening to Trofim Lysenko's crackpot theories. I'm not defending them. Just calling your bs strawman out. And again I reiterate letting people starve because it's more profitable, is far more damning than ignorant leninists being stupid.
I see so many of these attitudes (whether correct or not. I'm not here to argue) and it just makes Lemmy an awful place to try and enjoy my free time.
You guys make reddit look palatable, let that sink in.....
Should I call you a fascist and see how friendly you are? I don't think you are. And I'm not going to. But when someone pulls stupid shit like that. It doesn't actually contribute in anyway towards any sort of civil debate. And funny that your admonishing me and not him as well. Also, extra funny. Because that sort of shit is way worse on Reddit. Sooooooooo okay.
Yeah mate go nuts, I've been called plenty worse just today and been amused by it.
I am talking to both of you, your comment just happened to be the last in the chain.
I read the argument and thought "jesus fuck this place is basically unbearable".
Honestly I've seen plenty worse on reddit too, but also SO much better. There are obviously loads more users so the worst is worse than the worst here, and the best is better than the best here. The point I'm making is that the average interaction here is worse than reddit, that famously circlejerky echo chamber hivemind. Yet if I don't fit the mould of a lemmy user it seems I'm a villain 80% of the time so that description could just as validly be levelled at lemmy too.
An argument descends to ad-hominem attacks so unbelievably fast so unbelievably frequently. It really is no surprise users are dropping like flies at the moment and I feel I might be another one soon enough.
Not that you care, I hope you have a nice day regardless, take care :) x
Like I said. I'm not here to defend leninists. I disagree with them vehemently. I disagree with all authoritarians vehemently. They absolutely tend to dive into adhominems immediately in many instances. Not always, but far too often. It's kind of what you do when you can't actually defend your viewpoints. Doesn't really bother me though. I'm used to it from all over. As a social-libertarian I get called a fascist by many leninists, and a Leninist/tankie by fascists.
For myself though things have been far better over here than they ever were on Reddit. Perhaps that's because of my more natural left lean? That was always something viewed as negative on a site like Reddit.
See what you just wrote there. Every single person. That is so utterly ridiculous thing to say.
I think they were adding that anyone who has starved under these regimes should be counted in the needless deaths alongside the genocides
Would you also require a citation that the sun is very hot? The sky blue?
People who have died trying to ration insulin, due to how in the US it’s made by for-profit corporations, diabetes care requires many other ridiculously expensive supplies, and the system is set up to require expensive doctor office visits and insurance to maintain a prescription, though type 1 diabetes is life-long. Plenty of other medical examples also.
That's because the US healthcare system is garbage.
Look across Western Europe and they don't have those issues, despite having a lot of private involvement in their healthcare.
No kidding. But it’s specifically capitalist garbage and it’s the for- profit companies involved in it top to bottom who strongly resist reforms. They invest millions and millions in lobbying and with propagandizing the populace anytime Congress starts seriously looking at changing anything. And I mean hell, we even have TV commercials for prescription drugs.
I’m sure it would be possible to make a capitalist, private, for profit healthcare system that isn’t abusive. For a while, maybe, since the nature of capitalism is to grow to extract as much from consumers as possible. In any event, that’s not what we have in the United States, and it does cause people to die.
Because one of them promoted racial superiority in its main book, while the other equally hated everyone? Do your research!
I completely understand where you are coming from, but you got to realize that that concept of communism has been warped by western propaganda and selective education.
People hungry for power will use what ever ideology appeals to the people to gain power. Look at Donald Trump. He was historically a Democrat from New York uninterested in politics. He ran as a Democrat the first time but made no headlines. He switched parties and started talking pro-christian rhetoric. He is very obvious no Christian.
You see it with "Protect the children" anti-abortion groups. Who have no interest in actually protecting children. Groups that target trans people with the same stance have no interest in actually protecting children. Groups who are say they want to stamp out pedophilia use it to target privacy laws.
And you have groups like Nazis and Lenist who used socialism and communism as a means to an end. Those groups used those movements to consolidate power and wealth to the 1%, and used violence against others as a way to ensure their continued control, they were neither communist or socialist in practice, only in their speech.
Well they're considered just as fringe group by pretty much everyone else except for the people subscribing to it. Ofcourse they'll soon rush to tell you how their idea of communism is different and will actually lead to utopia but just imagine a neo-nazi trying that same argument.
It would do you a lot of good to actually read about communism and political theory in general instead of acting as a conduit of brain rot.