this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2023
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (4 children)

This is very specifically not terrorism, so no?

Strongly in favor of US soft power being used to change Israeli leadership goals though

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

How is it not?

ter·ror·ism

noun

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

They're using the threat of violence, and sometimes using violence, to push their agenda of Israeli expansion into Palestinian territory.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago

Ah, see it is lawful because Israel says so, therefore it doesn't qualify as terrorism. /s

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

the unlawful use

It's not unlawful to take land during a war. It's just shitty, in most instances.

This is why the settlements were (international viewed as) illegal (or, in the most generous of terms, of extremely questionable legality) prior to the war but aree authorized during the war specifically. Plays a lot better, in terms of international politics.

I would love to see the US make any aid to Israel conditional on a complete reversal of this policy and development of the West Bank in general. Would do a lot for the eventual peace process, as a nice side effect.

Edit: from the link in the article, about the background here

The deal would include gestures to the Palestinians. Among the suggestions has been a freeze in West Bank settlement activity, including the authorizations of outposts. Netanyahu’s government has been opposed to any such demand within the context of the Saudi deal or any other framework.

Prior to the war's start, it was very politically unpopular for them to build settlements on outpost territory. Not the gloves are off, because they have plausible reasons in the international community.

The US has the power to take that plausible reason away, and should do so.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 years ago (1 children)

So, if this is a war, they basically have the same rights as Ukraine as they fight for the integrity of their land? Is that what you're saying?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

The people of the west bank (and Gaza) absolutely have the right to fight back right now. I wouldn't recommend it as an outsider, because they're going to lose, but I'd do it if I was there, because I'm an idiot.

They didn't have the (internationally recognized) right to engage in hostilities, prior to the 10/7 terrorist attacks.

Worth noting this land is already Israeli land within the West Bank. They are outposts similar to US military bases.

You and I can disagree with Israel on the morality of that, but the international community absolutely recognizes this land as Israeli (outside the Muslim block of the UN, which doesn't really recognize Israel as a state still.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

Thank you for your reasonable voice. Reading comments here about this topic can be very frustrating.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

which doesn’t really recognize Israel as a state still.

Even Saudi Arabia is considering to normalize relationship with Israel.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

This is why Hamas attacked Israel in October, to try to disrupt that normalization, because Israel's "aggressive" strategies are as predictable as the tides.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

There is no war in the west bank. They are involved in a drastic increase of settler violence, colonialist land grabs, judicial violence and ecocide. Behaviour that has been observed for decades and that has seen a significant increase even before the Gaza strip war, and has seen an outright explosion following Israel's increase of wanton and indiscriminate violence in Gaza perpetrated by the IDF.

All of this violence in the west bank has been thoroughly documented by HRW and B'Tselem. The Israeli settler's and the IDF's behaviour is decidedly not a consequence of 'the war', and any claim made as such fails to take into account that this behaviour has seen an upwards trend for a decade at least, and is therefore merely a continuation, albeit a stark increase.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

There is no war in the west bank.

Per the article, Israel has declared war on the West Bank when they declared war against Hamas.

I find that declaration sweeping and a bit difficult to defend, but it has happened.

All of this violence in the west bank has been thoroughly documented by HRW and B’Tselem. The Israeli settler’s and the IDF’s behaviour is decidedly not a consequence of ‘the war’

This current violence is absolutely predicated upon the war legally, and more importantly in human terms, driven by hate - which is most assuredly because of the war.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It’s not unlawful to take land during a war. It’s just shitty, in most instances.

It is illegal to take land during a war. Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Boy someone better tell literally every country on the planet

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They did, that's why it's illegal now.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

Hey broski, you should've clicked some links in your Wikipedia article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cession

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Israel didn't start that war btw. Jordan, Syria and Egypt dont want the land.

Kind of similar to how Palestine has never been a country throughout all of human history. The only country that ever reliably tried to create a state of Palestine was Israel.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

seems to me israelis are using terror to achieve their goals. death threats supported by the idf seem pretty terrifying to me.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Artillery fire is also terrifying and is not terrorism

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 years ago (2 children)

are you sure? the israelis call the palestinian rockets terrorism.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

That is literal terrorism by literal terrorist groups, yes.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

according to whom? seems to me they are fighting a terrorist state.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Your personal beliefs can be anything. But according to how these terms are actually used in the real world (and not "kinda similar online pedantry") it is not the same at all.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

lol. just because a large number of people believes something doesn't make it true.

that is the beauty of truth, it endures in solitude until the lies have no more souls to eat. in the end it will shine bright and cast the light on fact that israel is a terrorist state. so you are like the slavery supporters.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

What lies? That Hamas are terrorists?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You did not answer my question.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

you mean i successfully outmaneuver your nuclear loaded question. bet you mad usual tricks don't work.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

The lie is that Israel is any different or morally superior than the terrorists they decry. It's a genocidal apartheid state and no amount of apologists spreading lies to the contrary will change that.

As has been done for decades, Israeli ~~settlers~~ invaders are using the ongoing fighting to justify forcibly removing Palestinians so they can take their things and live in their homes. They're doing to them many of the same things that were done to the Jewish people by the Nazis and we actually have people trying to claim they're in the right. It's disgusting.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

How can people actively defend terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah? Absolutely crazy.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

how am i defending them? what money have i send them. how much money have you sent israel?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Their openly, officially stated goal, of the destruction of Israel. It was in their constitution until recently. They specifically launch rockets into civilian area to kill as many civilians as possible.

Saying "who says they are terrorists?" when their own statements say so... Yeah.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

cool israel elected official, members of the israeli parliament called for the "glassing of gaza". idf drops bombs everywhere in gaza, something like a glassing of some sort. so they are fighting a terrorist state. this is a fact. are you going to call terrorists those who take arms against a terrorist state? how does that work?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Are you confusing the order in which things happened?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

short memory you have

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

What's crazy is people who think any criticism of Israel is support for Hamas and/or antisemitism. That objection doesn't hold up under even the slightest scrutiny, yet we have people like you repeating it again and again. It's like claiming critics of the death penalty believe murder should be without repercussions. It's nonsensical and l, appropriately enough, I have yet to meet a single supporter of such an opinion who can provide any sort of explanation of how it makes sense.

Do you just repeat what the government tells you without ever questioning it?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Giant LOL here.

Hamas uses terror to get what they want: that's terrorism because it's a terrorist group!

Israeli government uses terror to get what they want: that's not terrorism because it's a government, not a terrorist group!

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Hamas is running a government too, so I guess they're not either. Problem solved everyone, Israel can go home now.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Why were Israel sponsoring Hamas, a terrorist group, to displace the moderate PLO-aligned orgs then?

Irredeemable stupidity?

Antisemitism?

Manufacturing a pretext for the genocide they're now committing, perhaps?

We've established elsewhere that Israel meets the UN definition of terrorism.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Irredeemable stupidity?

As always, when something truly terrible happens, it's this.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

While genocide does require intense stupidity, decades-long escalation toward genocide when you're dependent on US support requires a pretext before you can escalate. There's elements of all of the above - busy mostly the pretext.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

You have got to be kidding.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Politically motivated violence to exterminate an ethno-religious group sounds like terrorism to me. I think the difference you see vs most terrorist orgs is that Israel have the means to follow through on their genocidal intent.

The UN General Assembly's definition of terrorism from a condensation of it:

Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes.

The US legal definition:

premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents

I think it meets the UN definition, but misses the US definition because it's a national power that's committing it.

Edit: The national power requirement would ironically mean the Holocaust wasn't a genocide, so I think it's better for everyone that we don't rely on the US government's definition that seems to throw the baby out with the genocidal bathwater in an effort to show that it's impossible for them (or a certain strategic ally in the Middle East) to meet the definition of a genocide.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Politically motivated violence to exterminate an ethno-religious group sounds like terrorism to me

That's not happening.

I'm sure you have lots of opinions on this, but I'm not talking about how I feel. I'm talking about how the world actually works.

If you aren't going to discuss reality there's not much point in us continuing.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I took the definition and pointed out how it's applicable to the situation - what have I missed about how the world actually works? So far, it looks a lot like your feelings to me.

  • Palestinian casualties in the "conflict" are pretty squarely in-line with the broader Palestinian population, making it pretty indisputable the IDF is indiscriminately killing Palestinians, not targeting Hamas.
  • The Netanyahu administration has been spouting all sorts of genocidal rhetoric.
  • The Netanyahu administration actively propped up Hamas over moderate orgs. Seems like someone needed a pretext for the thing they've been trying to do for decades.
  • The Netanyahu administration has indiscriminately halted the movement of Palestinians, and cut water, power, food, trade and aid. Some of these have been restored thanks to international pressure - open war crimes and whatnot.
  • The UN has characterised the Netanyahu administration'so management of Palestine as an open air concentration camp.
  • The IDF has killed tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians - a major share of those deaths were children.
  • The IDF lies relentlessly - tunnels built under the Al-Shifa hospital by the Israeli government? No - that was Hamas... But Hamas beheaded all those babies - trust us, bro - we've got the evidence, but can't share it or have it verified. Then there's the Arabic calendar nonsense, the "hospital" curtain bullshit, the list goes on.

Do you have a counter more substantive than "feels", "we don't want to kill thousands of children - Hamas made us" or "criticising genocide is antisemitic"?

Edit: Formatting & clarity.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I really would have liked to see their answer but it appears they're unable to substantiate any of their argument. I'm not surprised, their criticisms seem to be entirely projection.

Great job laying out your case, by the way.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

Thanks! The formatting could use some work if nothing else, but I appreciate it.

To be fair, it's only hitting 8am in Israel now, so there's still the possibility of some substantiation yet - though deflection, performative offence, claiming a lack of evidence, and whattaboutisms seem more likely - let's see...

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's not a rising democracy in a central American country so the US won't care to intervene

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I find it inexcusable that we don't use our power to rein in Israel. It's not only morally repugnant (and I'm staunchly a defender of Israel's right to exist and anti-Hamas), but it's also just really shitty in terms of realpolitik.

There's no justifiable reason the US can't strongarm Israel into a two-state solution that guarantees a full pull back from the west bank. What's Israel going to do, turn on the US? Will never happen.

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