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Why were they holding military hostages in a refugee camp?
Because Hamas is just a shitty as Israel. The only difference seems to be that Israel is far, far more effective.
And that Hamas keeps military hostages in civilian refugee campus.
Yes pretty shitty isn’t it.
Do you think it’s an acceptable response to murder 274 other innocent people to save those 4? Are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives to you?
Of those 274, I wonder how many of those will now want to join Hamas for vengeance against the people that killed their families.
I think it's appalling that the de facto governing body in that area would not find a way to separate their civilian population from known military objectives, instead of distributing them throughout a refugee camp and hiding there themselves (of those 274, there were combatants). I think Palestinians deserve better.
Yes me too.
Again, I don’t believe that justifies the actions of the IDF? What about you?
Perhaps you could stop avoiding the question and either call out Israel as well, or say no I think what Israel did by mudering 274 innocent people including 60+ children is acceptable to you.
We just want some clarity in your stance here. As the consensus here is most people are willing to call out both sides, whereas you seem to only want to focus on one side. Some might say you’re being biased.
Some might say you're whatabouting my initial question. Something shitty Hamas performs does not have to be met with something shitty Israel does. This is the inversion of the "but do you condemn Hamas" schtick.
As I pointed out, those 274 people involved combatants. If there weren't combatants or if they were held in a different location than a refugee camp, I would think this operation would have gone very differently.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-06-09-2024-61eb1be9a9d0cf2dbf250cd4a8ed4dbf
To address your whataboutism, I think netanyahu has a tolerance for collateral damage that most of the world has a problem with, and we will see what the repercussions are. If I were a family member who's loved one was taken, I would think this was a success while mourning the great cost this is coming at. I think it's grotesque to try to simply weigh lives versus lives in a hostage rescue mission in which one side insists on involving their own civilians in the cross fire.
My thoughts on whether this was worth it really are insignificant, I'd defer to the hostages' families and the Palestinians. If I were putting myself in the hostage families shoes, I'd give anything to have them back. If I were a Palestinian, I'd wonder why both sides are willing to treat us so poorly and resent my aggressors (both sides). This isn't a black and white issue no matter how much you want to reduce it to such.
And you're not "both siding" anything, you're riding the previous comment trying to equate the two by saying Hamas is just as shitty as Israel somehow. And I'm saying that only one side is hiding military objectives and themselves in civilian areas here, which is greatly exacerbating the outcomes.
I’m sorry that you’re making it impossible to have a discussion with.
I have numerous times agreed with your assessment of Hamas and only asked you to either agree that the IDF should be held to a similar standard and you just dance around the topic.
Reporting the Israeli military or governments responses are meaningless to any of us. We all know they lie, they have been caught lying. The same can be said for Hamas statements.
I’ll leave it with the ICC and the ICJ, as again your counter points have been to comment on the innocent Israelis whilst disregarding the innocent Palestinians, which is either due to you purposely being obtuse, or at worst you really don’t care about any innocent Palestinian and you have as much a blood lust as Netanyahu.
Either way I will end the _conversation_here and hope that in the future when we look back on this you will know that you were actively supporting monsters, killing innocent people to aid in killing other monsters.
That's... A weird response. I fail to find any examples of bloodlust in my comment, and more so compassion for both sides (not Hamas, just Palestinians). It's like there can't be anything but extreme and binary responses in your world, and I'm not meeting your qualification of whatever "side" you're taking.
My responses to both sides have been well represented, while your responses to one side have been trite (yes, shitty isn't it) while then directing back to something Israel is doing. That, you're very eloquent about. Almost like you don't want to discuss what I'm talking about.
Then you cast me as obtuse because I wasn't polarized enough. This is a terrible war, fuck Hamas, fuck netanyahu, 2-state solution with a reformed PA, hostages need to come home. That's my stance. If Hamas wants to make that more painful because they know netanyahu will roll in guns blazing, who are they getting back at? Because so far it's just the Palestinians who are suffering.
I thank you for finally calling out Netanyahu and the Israeli side in this.
Your previous comments were still in some way justifying this latest atrocity and this is why I gave up.
The hostages could have come home months ago, in any number of the proposed ceasefire agreements that Israel rejected. Search Reuters for the Three phase one from last month or so.
The reason I am being one sided, and not on the side of Hamas, is because Israel has the funding of the USA and UK and could have ended this anytime they wanted to. Ten of thousands of people have been murdered for vengeance and I find that deplorable, and infinitely more deplorable than October 7th. The pre-eminent expert on the Israel-Palestine issue, Norman Finkelstein (Jewish) has been quite consistent in decades of Israeli apartheid and heinous acts and to some degree I understand the actions of Hamas. If every other avenue to peace is knocked down then people are going to fight back. This whole situation has been Israel’s own making for decades.
Just like you, seemingly, said you would accept other innocent people being killed to bring back your family. Well don’t you see this for the other side.
I personally wouldn’t want other innocent people to die to bring back my family. What makes my family worth more than yours.
Anyway, I’m off to bed now, but if you would like to continue this, I’ll be about tomorrow after work.
If there's more to discuss I'm game. My point is, I'm not in any position to justify or condemn these actions, but that if I were someone with skin in the game, my reactions would vary. As far as this particular situation goes, I'm not justifying or condemning anything here but the involvement of civilians (I in general take the stance I mentioned above). I don't know the status on the ground but do believe that there was reason for fighting. If we're still using Hamas death counts (which don't differentiate fighters from civilians outside of broad estimates), we can extend trust to Israeli sources too until proven wrong.
Netanyahu won't agree to a ceasefire that has any possibility of allowing Hamas to rebuild. Especially with the ring of fire increasing it's intensity around Israel, I imagine giving Hamas any breathing room is a non starter for them. Currently Hamas needs to respond to the latest deal, as far as I understand, but maybe things have progressed since I checked. Getting Hamas out of Gaza is beneficial to both Israel and Palestinians.
Of course Palestinians won't see it the same as Israelis, they're in drastically different boats right now. I'm saying that the civilians in this all have valid points that oppose each other, so why pick only one who is right? Why should Israeli civilians sacrifice getting their loved ones back so Palestinians can live? Why should Palestinian civilians die so Israeli hostages can be brought to safety?
My original question at the heart of this is why is Hamas creating the situation where civilians need to be drilled through (something netanyahu is willing to comply with)? I'm sure everyone here figured there were civilian casualties without even investigating, but why does Hamas insist on this? And if Israel should not kill innocent people to get their hostages back, how else do you negotiate with people who are trying to eliminate you besides giving them everything they want? This turns into a playbook for any terrorist organization to mimic, simply put innocents in harm's way and you get what you want.
I don't know any good answer out of this, but I think it's by design. There's no upside for the Palestinians being put in the middle of this when Hamas gets to hide underground knowing netanyahu will go for broke. This just can't involve capitulating to a terrorist organization that didn't give a shit about their people to begin with, and continue to show they haven't changed.
And this is where we diverge, I am not understanding of Hamas' actions. That is reprehensible, they're monsters and it is part of their mission to eliminate Jews (seemingly at the expense of Palestinians). This is not at all understandable, and I reject any sympathy to Hamas. This is absolutely not a both sides issue. Israel is not solely responsible for this, if the people who want to kill them didn't set up shop next to them with the civilians, I would think the climate would be much more tame. I entertain absolutely zero justification for Hamas' actions.
Edit: I'm going to lay in even harder and express complete disgust that there is sympathy for Hamas here.
I agree that removing Hamas would make it far easier for there to be a peaceful solution. Unfortunately, Israel and Netanyahu took that option off the table a long time ago. If they don't like that they should have thought about the consequences of their actions. The PLA was willing to negotiate and that didn't work for them. Hamas is far less willing to peacefully negotiate, which gave Israel a handy whipping boy for not resolving this peacefully. Now people are dying and they claim to be the wronged party, when in fact both parties have wronged each other for hundreds or thousands of years.
If you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind. Unfortunate that it's messy for everyone around them.
I don't think there's any reality where anyone absolutely has to suffer Hamas (though Iran would have a say otherwise), and their negotiations have been such that they'd be able to rebuild in Gaza, which Israel doesn't agree with. Realistically Hamas needs to be neutered politically, and that comes with reformed governance.
And in a better world, I'd agree with you. But when Isreal spends a decade or more propping them up, well, that's how it goes.
Hamas actions are their own, no one forced them to put civilians in danger. While netanyahu needs to go, he is not to blame for the attrocities Hamas commits against their own people. Notwithstanding netanyahu's errors, this is not just the way it goes.
If I support and aid someone who I know is committing atrocities, I hold some amount of responsibility. Netanyahu has put himself in that position with respect to Hamas.
Sure, as I said he needs to go, and he holds some responsibility. Netanyahu has fucked himself through this in too many other ways as well. Hamas is making the decision to use Palestinians as shields, with or without netanyahu's funding, and could choose to not do this any time. Which I would welcome.
Realistically Likud and the Jewish Power Party needs to be neutered politically. Why is nobody talking about how Israel has convicted terrorists in its cabinet while at the same time complaining that Palestinians should have popular political parties banned? Rightwing extremism on one side begets rightwing extremism by the other side in response. This has been the case for over 30 years, we just had the 30 year anniversary of Israeli terrorist Baruch Goldstein’s massacre which kicked of Hamas’ wave of bombings in Israel.
Yes and... No. But mostly no.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/opinions/gazan-hope-for-peace-masri/index.html
Talk about cherry picking an opinion piece. Of course you’d promote someone who says what you want to hear and ignore the many many Palestinian op-Ed’s who don’t.
I love any Palestinian who supports peace but this guy made some blatant historical errors. In 2007, Fatah engaged in a coup against the PA since they couldn’t accept the election result. Israel publicly supported the coup, even with the prime minister publicly urging the Knesset to send weapons to Fatah so they could complete the coup. The coup attempt failed, which is why Hamas controlled Gaza while Fatah controlled West Bank. Netanyahu publicly supported Hamas through this with money, which is why the Israel press has been tearing into him for the last 6 months.
If you want a more mainstream Palestinian voice, I’d recommend Khaled Elgindy who has previously worked with the White House on negotiations. Not this guy who whitewashes Israeli crimes in hopes he could get picked to help run the occupation.
Hamas could have just let the IDF and the rescued hostages go. Instead, they chose violence... with predictable results.
Several deals to release the hostages have been rejected by Israel, like this one .
If you want to play they could have done that game. Then Israel could not have stolen land for decades and kept people in essentially an open air prison. The vast majority of Palestinians didn’t vote for Hamas, as they were children the last time there was a vote.
You’re justifying the murder of innocent people as retribution for the murder of innocent people and I find that deplorable. As do the ICC, ICJ, and everyday more and more governments.
Yes, Israel rejected the deal because they want Hamas destroyed, either as an unconditional surrender by the remaining Hamas fighters or as some kind of 'Alamo' last stand by Hamas. If the IDF fails to make further progress, they may reconsider the deal.
Israel has the land it has as the result of coming out on top in previous wars. Israel won't give up any land until a genuine peace deal is achieved, which isn't likely anytime soon, since Hamas explicitly rejects any kind of peace deal with Israel, only cease - fires.
You are correct that many Gazans were children the last time elections were held in Gaza, but according to opinion polls taken shortly after the October 7th attack, about 70% of Palestinians (both in Gaza and the West Bank) support the attack on Israel and the taking of hostages. You reap what you sow.
I'm not justifying the murder of anyone. Hamas wants civilian casualties (involuntary martyrs) so as to elicit sympathy from the world.
Sadly, there will be future civilian casualties in Gaza in the coming weeks and months unless some drastically changes or Hamas surrenders.
Israel detains many Palestinians including hundreds of minors without charge, on bases right in the middle of civilian towns. Heck, IDF headquarters is right in the middle of a civilian neighborhood in Tel Aviv. Does that mean Tel Aviv is a legitimate military target?
Is there an active battle in that area? Or is that a secure area far from conflict? Because it sounds like your contention here is that Palestinian hostages are held in secure bases far from conflict. If I were a hostage and had a choice, I'd prefer to be where there isn't fighting.
You’re missing the point completely, the Israeli military knowingly puts their bases in civilian areas knowing they are targets by enemy forces, putting the surrounding civilians at risk.
~~Is there a source for that motivation? Knowingly seems unfounded~~.
Edit: I may be misunderstand whatever your point is. Are you trying to say that whoever puts military bases near civilians is willfully endangering civilians? I think considerations about threat of attack come into play, and how great that risk is. Let's also not forget people can choose to live around there or not. I mean, there are plenty of military bases in the US that are not under threat of attack. Is the US trying to endanger it's civilians? That seems ridiculous. Equally as ridiculous is the idea that Israel chose to put bases where they were going to be attacked in the future.
Yes according to Israeli logic based on what they say about Palestinians and Lebanese. Their behavior is hypocritical.
Hamas, Hizbullah, and Iran have all directly targeted these military installations, some in cities, and Israeli PR hollowly complains about how civilians are put in peril.
I don't think you have an understanding of their military choices to make that claim, and I'm kind of confused as to your point so I'm going to cut to the chase. Are you suggesting it's ok that Hamas does this because Israel has (not equivalently, let's not get ahead of ourselves and say I agree with you)?
Edit: because you're getting fiesty with me in the other comment, I'm not continuing this with you.
Where else would it be safe to hold the hostages? The rest of the area is getting bombed to oblivion. Most of the hostages are probably under rubble.
I hear there's this intricate network of tunnels they hide in.
I doubt the hostages would survive a sponge bomb, you know, the kind the IDF uses to clear tunnels (they built).
So then Hamas has evacuated these tunnels because they don't work?
What if I showed you how the IDF would destroy parts of Gaza even if Hamas wasn't present: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/no-evidence-of-hamas-tunnels-under-cemetery-destroyed-by-israeli-military-investigation/3123427
So you're saying it might be a good idea to make known certain safe zones for hostages and not turn those into battle grounds? Who is that incumbent on?
Also, aa is Turkish state media and not trustworthy.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/anadolu-agency/
The particular article I linked is relaying CNN's own reporting 🤷: https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/29/world/israel-cemetery-bani-suheila-intl/index.html
Right, I didn't deny that happened. I think there's more to deciding linking to Turkish state media than CNN, like you're trying to legitimize a propaganda outlet (hence I said also). So you're not against holding hostages in combat free zones? Good! Who is that incumbent upon? Because I know who has direct control of those hostages.
None of that matters since Israel bombs "combat free zones".
Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o.amp
To maximize civilian casualties, obviously. Hamas profits off the deaths of Palestinian civilians, so why wouldn't they want civilians to die?
They're now trying to come up with a justification to attack the pier Biden installed to prevent aid from getting in. So Palestinians will starve. Then people will be outraged and donate more money to Hamas. There's no downside for Hamas psychopaths.
Yep, and the agencies disseminating these things come from a typical cast of characters (hello Turkey and Iran!). It's great that more aid is getting to Palestinians.
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2024/06/09/3100535/us-built-pier-used-in-israel-s-brutal-nuseirat-camp-attack-in-gaza-report
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-support-israeli-forces-rescue-hostages-gaza/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/tasnim-news-agency/
Edit: people down vote exposing Turkish state media :)
Maybe in a sectioned off portion of their tunnel system, one where Hamas fighters are defending them without Palestinian civilians in between. I haven't heard of Palestinians being allowed to camp out in there, so that might be a better place to keep hostages than apartment buildings. They could then keep fighting segmented more easily I would imagine and preserve more civilian lives.
So you're saying it isn't safe for Hamas to be keeping hostages in those areas right? So why keep them there? And they're underground, some went to Egypt.
I think you're responding to a different comment.
Are all the tunnels gone? If not, can the hostages go there? If they're all gone, is Hamas now hiding out above ground only? That'd be news to me. Otherwise I think letting at least hostages in, and maybe some civilians, would be safer. As you said, the area is getting bombed, and since Hamas hides amongst the civilians, as shown here, above ground is not safe for civilians based on Hamas' tactics and netanyahu's willingness to drive hard. So why does Hamas choose this route?