this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2024
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[–] [email protected] 134 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, genius thought that creating CyberTruk and turn full Nazi will expand his consumer base.

Sucks for real founders of Tesla, but hey, at least you helped bootstrapping switch to EVs.

[–] [email protected] 69 points 11 months ago (1 children)

seriously, I think if Elon could just sit back and shut the fuck up about everything since the beginning, he could have went down in history as one of the greatest man alive.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Apartheid Space Karen just had to go and call the Thai cave diver a pedo because his tech bro submarine idea was dumb as fuck, and his fragile ego couldn't handle the L.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I wondered if that was the trigger or just a symptom. I suspect, given his upbringing and previous reputation from other startups, it was just a symptom.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago

Definitely. But it was the moment where a LOT of people started seeing the real elon

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago

Oh, billionaires and their submarines. I wish Elon wanted to tour the Titanic.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

turn full Nazi

He's a Nazi? Like, literally? What's the latest?

Edit: we're discussing the down votes for this comment below. I'm baffled, because I'm merely asking for info. Please, if you want to down vote, reconsider, and consider replying to me why instead. 🙂 I don't care about the votes, I'm just curious why a simple request could be so unpopular. Thank you.

[–] [email protected] 55 points 11 months ago (2 children)

He lets Nazis use his platform and calls it "freedom of speech", although this exact freedom is limited by the wellbeing of others. And promoting Nazis is harmful to not only minorities, but the society in my opinion, as they strive to split the society with populist arguments.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

I disagree. It's better to let naziz talk so their opinions can be argued against. Nothing is solved by censorship. The opinions are still there, you just don't see them.

I don't know why people today are so sensitive? Why is it hard to see someone say something you don't agree with?

If you want to actually solve the problem that those people hate strangers for no real reason, you need to talk to them.

Elon isn't promoting naziz, he is just not censoring them. Hopefully you see the difference.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I don't know why people today are so sensitive?

I don't know, maybe because it's hard to not be sensitive about ideas that threaten your life and very existence?

Elon isn't promoting naziz, he is just not censoring them.

Twitter disproportionately take action against LGBTQ+ individuals and ignore nazis. There is no debate that Elon is promoting right wing ideas by protecting nazi speech.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So you meant that the platform is nazi because it's not supporting lgbtq+? Im not on that platform and don't know anything about it, but the word nazi has traditionally not been used for gender issues, but race issues.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's well known that Nazis aren't very fond of lgbtq+ people, despite them being more known for being anti-Semitic and just generally racist.

But I would like to know, what would constitute promoting nazi ideals for you?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yes of course but not liking lgbtq+ people is not nazism.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Wishing for their eradication sure is.

Again, what do you think Elon would need to do for his actions to constitute promoting nazism?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago

I don't know. I don't even follow what's going on there on the platform. What do you think?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

This is such a naive and ignorant take that assumes everything is argued in good faith and not with an army of bots posting literal propaganda, lies, and disinformation in order to brainwash people who don't know any better.

What you're arguing for is allowing cancer to spread rather than seeing a doctor about it "because the immune system will take care of it."

We're not arguing about "a marketplace of ideas" in real life, this is about weaponizing technology to serve the interests of a select few to the detriment of everyone else.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

That's a good point. Thanks.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

I don’t know why people today are so sensitive? Why is it hard to see someone say something you don’t agree with?

I also used to be a free speech absolutist, but they took that and ran with it. Just like so many other things in modern life, the crazies take over. If I can no longer use the service then they’ve gone too far and I’ll move to one that’s still civil (why can’t the nazis stay in their damn subreddit instead of infecting mine?)

Then we came to the us 2016 election and all the fallout since. I was just flabbergasted when people in the public space started denying reality. They admitted denying reality and making stuff up. They admitted denying reality and making stuff up and somehow still had followers. They admitted denying reality and making stuff up and still had followers that turned into votes. We all saw the point where crazies took that free speech and ran with it, where the uneducated and gullible or desperate hung in their every word. We saw damage to society right in front of our eyes. Before this, I would have said free speech at least brings it out into the open and lets people become educated. However now I see some people will say or do anything for the notoriety or wealth, some people will follow it blindly and can’t be educated, and that directly increase divisiveness, violence, lawlessness, harassment and discrimination. I don’t know a better approach but I do know the current status is not ok.

Maybe it’s as simple as consequences. You have a right to free speech but you also need to face the consequences of your words. In the past that may have meant you’re ostracized from various parts of society, or marginalized, but online that doesn’t seem to work anymore. You can say anything as long as the clicks follow, without facing the consequences of your words. Maybe the Alex Jones lawsuit will help or maybe we need to find ways to facilitate situations like that: you have free speech but also face the consequences of your words, which may include taking the fortune you made with your “alternative facts”. But when we have a presidential campaign that names it, is proud of it, and people still follow, what can we do? When there’s a huge profit motive for outrage, what can we do? Where fleecing the rubes has no consequences, what can we do? Where there are no checks and balances to keep the entire system stable, what can we do? I’ve never been so disappointed in my fellow supposedly sentient beings.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

I think that free speech is okay, IF it's consensual and if each person is represented by themselves. I do not think bots and duplicate accounts are free speech. I do not think spamming messages and overwhelming media is free speech.

Imo if I dislike what people are saying, then it's up to me to look at things systemically rather than personally. Fascism seems to be akin to a societal response to external threats, almost like a scab forming. Which is why so many leftists do indeed turn to fascist methods to fight fascists - wasps swarming their hive.

If we reduced external threats, maybe modeled non-threatening behaviors, it could help every day. The Black Panthers, for instance, used to feed people (reducing the external threat of starvation). Remember how friendly everyone used to be? I try to bring some of that back by complimenting people, asking about their day. It may seem minor, but that's what communities are built on. And modeling prosocial behavior is, at its core, antifascist.

What happened in 2016 was so clear, along with Jan 6th. It is quite disturbing how many people still support him - I went on vacation to Newport.Beach recently, near LA, and there were multiple businesses there and on Balboa Beach openly supporting Trump. I saw Trump merch everywhere including hats. It was honestly insane to see something like that within 30 miles of a major city. These are people with money and access to education (not that they use it...). These are some of the people who literally own most of the American economy (California is the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world by itself). And they don't want to acknowledge climate change or that fascism is bad. It's bad here.

Reducing freedom of speech wouldn't change how bad things are here.

And please give your fellow Americans some grace. Yes, it's wild they can't see what's going on, but it's kinda obvious someone took the CIA's classic plan for destabilizing a country and uno reversed it onto us, right? Like the obvious attacks on education, business, medicine, etc, this isn't happening on accident. There are countries paying billions for your mom and my dad and everyone's grandparents to be hypnotized into self sabotaging.

Wars aren't always fought with guns

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

That makes sense I guess. I don't live in the US and I didn't follow the election but I understand it was very strange. But just look at the political leaders there. Of course it's going to be an absurd election.

It's like picking between cartoon characters.

That being said, I appriciate your view on free speach. When it seems that people are not rational, of course you don't want them to have a voice.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago

I am not talking about feeling attacked, but rather to not give anti-societal movements any platform.

Also, that ideology is not based in factual arguments, so why would arguing succeed? The real solution would be for them to get to know foreigners to seez that they are just people, but that doesn't happen on twitter.

Yes, I see the difference, but its indicative of his ideology I think.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Calling someone a Nazi is quite a serious accusation, and it's going to need a lot better justification than that. I post gay porn on Twitter, and Elon lets me do that. Does that mean he's gay too?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 months ago

You’ve tied my head up in knots with this one. Haha

As to the argument above yours, fostering a space for Nazis to grow their movement is scary. I get that some segments of society think that posting gay porn is scary too, but gay porn never led to death camps for anybody.

I think all ideas are worth discussing, because if they’re hiding in quiet corners there are no voices of reason to refute them. It’s hard to take that stance nowadays with the internet working the way it does. Algorithms feeding information to people just because that information gets engagement is frightening.

I had a conversation with my neighbor yesterday about how he got interested in the whole furry thing. He said that initially, he read the critical comments online, took them seriously, thought it was funny, so he engaged in harassment of furries. His engagement led him to more furry videos. He began to like some of the people he was engaging with. Fast forward to now and he’s got fursuits hanging in his closet and everyone he hangs with is also a furry.

It got me thinking about how a lot of kids end up going down these rabbit holes online. Not that I consider being a furry a bad thing. My daughter is into that stuff and I support her being herself. His example just made me think of how other people fall into extremism online.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Nazis say they want to murder people until there are enough of rhem to do so. Gay porn afaik has not murdered anyone and has no agenda to do so.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Nope. Lefties like to call any outspoken conservative a "Nazi" to discredit them. It's like when conservatives call lefties "communist." It's juvenile IMO, but I guess it works.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago (1 children)

How do you know they are left?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I don't, but there seems to be a very strong correlation between leftist political views and calling people who tolerate Trump "Nazis."

That said, I'm not a leftist or a conservative, I dislike Trump, Musk, and what they stand for. I'm libertarian, and not in the "I'm a conservative who likes weed" way (I have no desire to use weed, but it should 100% be legal), but in a "We should work toward open borders" way. I respect Musk's statement that he wants Twitter/X to be a free speech platform and understand him allowing Trump et al back on, but I think he has really lost what made Twitter interesting. I don't think he actually wants free speech, he wants people to agree with him to be heard, and "free speech" is the excuse to get them platformed again.

My issue here has nothing to do with Musk, but with the liberal (pun intended) use of the term "Nazi" to label people you don't like. There are actual Nazi movements that could apply to, such as the Proud Boys, and abusing the term just cheapens the meaning of the term.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It certainly seems that way. I think social media has made people turn on eachother. Everything is dumbed down. Sides are calling eachother names. Its all so useless.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yup, and that's more than a feeling, there's a lot of evidence for it. Here's a PDF research paper about polarization in social media, here's an article, and here's a related poll of people in emerging markets.

Then again, politics has always been divisive and resorting to name-calling isn't anything new. The research, however, seems to indicate that it has gotten much worse with social media.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Yes, it's obvious even without any research papers, at least to me who grew up before social media. It has changed and weaponized people against eachother. People assume the worst about people just from reading a comment.

Funny actually.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Leftists are communist though. Liberals are the progressives that prefer capitalism

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (12 children)

No, I disagree with each of your definitions. Here's how I see them:

  • leftist - anyone left of center; this is a big tent with both capitalists and communists
  • progressives - leftists who want significant, but moderate political change (e.g. universal healthcare, high minimum wage, etc)
  • liberals - anyone who believes in individual rights and private property, so basically the capitalist wing of leftist ideology; originally, liberals were more synonymous w/ modern libertarians, but now they tend to prefer larger government

So in terms of size of the groups: leftists > liberals > progressives. The communist part of the left is largely mutually exclusive from progressives and liberals, though some progressives are in favor of some elements from socialism.

At least that's how I see it. I'm neither leftist or conservative, I'm a pretty centrist libertarian. I'm left of many leftists and right of many conservatives, depending on the issue.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Thus website doesn't like any opinion that is anyway different to theirs. They want the echo chamber.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I am wondering why there is such a down vote count on this. I thought there was a new development that he's actually a Nazi supporter, rather than just letting them roam free on his platform.

It's not even an opinion. I'm literally curious to know more facts lol.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This website fucking insane in all honesty.

Like I'm not going to say Elon is perfect. But on here they live in fantasy land. He seems to be living rent free in their head.

Space X is the biggest one where it becomes obvious how biased it is. Space X will public announced that they are testing something and expect it to fail. Then it does better than expected but doesn't complete everything perfectly. Then everyone on here acts like the greatest space company in the world is failing singlehandedly because Elon is stupid and also an evil genius. Also that he has too much control and that is had too little.

Facts don't matter here. Everyone is too fragile so free speech is scary to them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Maybe you're right. I'm not here to argue with anyone over Elon, I'm just here for the show/trainwreck and the popcorn lol.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

Yea it fills some time. Enjoy.