this post was submitted on 29 Apr 2024
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[–] [email protected] 28 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's rather the opposite. Big oil pushes nuclear because nuclear directly competes with renewables, and because nuclear is a centralised power generation solution that they can fully own, in contrast with stuff like rooftop solar or onshore wind. Shell has a share in General Atomics, BP is eyeing investments into nuclear energy.

Nuclear fusion might truly be an answer, but there is nothing that nuclear does that renewables can also do, but cheaper and faster.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Literal fucking oil shill. Tell me. Where did I ever say to not keep building solar? Where did I ever say that we should let oil Giants maintain their monopolies. I agree that we do need to continue to expand renewable options at a local and state level, not a corporate fossil fuel level. Open your goddamn eyes and read the five graphs I've pasted so far in this common thread. Please make me understand how if technology we've been investing in more heavily than anything else for 20 years and that only now takes up 16% of our total energy needs is going to magically cover the other fucking 84%. Of the base load.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Money spent building nuclear is money not spent on renewables. I didn't say you said to stop building solar, but deciding to build nuclear does mean building less solar, simple allocation of resources.

Solar energy particularly has been becoming increasingly efficient and cheap. In fact, it's ahead of even the most optimistic expectations price-wise.

There's been plenty of studies showing that nuclear is not theoretically required to achieve 100% fossil-fuel free energy generation. And we've known this since 2009: https://frontiergroup.org/articles/do-we-really-need-nuclear-power-baseload-electricity/#:~:text=Nuclear%20power%20proponents%20argue%20that,baseload%20power%20other%20than%20nuclear.

Wind, solar, geothermal, hydro and energy storage solutions are perfectly capable of providing the full energy demand whenever we require it. The only issue is building sufficient amounts of it.

In fact, nuclear is particularly bad at providing base power. The reason is that renewables are so cheap (and becoming cheaper), that one of the main issues has turned into having too much power on the grid. Nuclear unfortunately doesn't turn off and on very quickly. Many old reactors take a couple hours to do so, and even if it's technically possible it's financially impossible because the reactor would be running at too large a loss. When dealing with fluctuating power (mostly caused by the day/night cycle of solar, other effects mostly even out if the grid is large enough), you need a backup system that can also easily turn on and off. Energy storage and hydrogen can do this, nuclear can't.

Then there's the energy security argument. 40% of uranium imports come from Russia. Kazakhstan is an alternative, but even that is largely controlled by Rosatom.

Literal fucking oil shill.

Please stay civil. I'm happy to debate you but you can keep the insults to yourself. I'm very much against the oil industry. I'm not even necessarily against nuclear as a technology (I think it's safe and don't think the waste will be too big of an issue, also fusion is really cool science), but I have to conclude that it doesn't make financial sense to go for nuclear, there's practical problems integrating it with a renewable grid and we just have better alternatives.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

I'm calling you an oil shill because nobody is pushing nuclear. Nuclear is being decommissioned nuclear power is not on the rise for the last 20 years. There has been a net loss of nuclear power and the only country's building reactors currently are China, India and Russia. So your entire rhetoric is flawed.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago

Nobody is pushing nuclear? Strange, I wonder why in my country numerous parties have been pushing for nuclear then (mostly right-wing pro-corporation parties with fossil fuel donors).

Here's an article if you don't believe me: https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/03/let-the-state-build-new-nuclear-power-stations-vvd-and-cda/

There's plenty of parties pushing nuclear. The fact that it's hard to actually build doesn't mean that there's no lobbying effort being made. And even then, a lobbying effort now will only really result in a net nuclear gain in 10-20 years time when the reactors actually finish.

And for the record, "big oil" , does invest in nuclear. Chevron, Duke Energy, Eni, Shell and BP all investments in some nuclear research or nuclear company. The reason they don't really invest much more is simple: it's barely profitable, if at all. And renewables threaten the financial picture even more.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

Renewables are great while in combination with peaker plants as the renewables produce a good amount of the base load when the sun shines wind blows etc, That energy generation is dirt cheap no arguments there. The Issue is those Peaker Plants are OIL COAL and GAS fired in most cases. The ideal solution IMHO would be to phase out the peakers and replace them with grid scale power storage augmented with nuclear base stations to manage load and reduce the need for new construction of grid scale power storage. The issue only using renewables is these grid scale batteries are projected to cost billions of dollars per project and if we forgo nuclear base stations to provide base load we would need a massive amount of these grid scale power storage stations in addition to also then having to generating roughly 90% more power than we do now from renewables alone to replace fossil fuels and to make up for inefficiencies in a storage dependent grid due to the fact that there would be constant losses of energy every time its transferred from generation to storage to use potential. Its simpler and more efficient make power on demand so I think we should take the current infrastructure and modify it. A turbine cares not what turns it. We can rip out coal fired oil fired and gas fired infrastructure and replace it with a modern generation of Small Modular Reactors ( it is proven technology ask the US NAVY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_naval_reactors ) With Peaker plants being transitioned to base stations this would make it so that the excess energy stored during the day can be tapped but we would not have to depend on it. Instead we can dynamically as needed (as the day ends in solar heavy locations or on calm days in wind heavy locations) start up the nuclear base stations to keep the grid energized using the batteries as a buffer on both ends as the Nuclear plants can not be cycled as quickly as fossil plants but can provide steady power on demand.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Solar, wind, geothermal and biofuels

Aka renewables

So while the progress of the last few decades in renewables is great progress, I'm certain you can see why we need to divest from oil and invest in nuclear tech to take up the base load

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I'm surprised that solar isn't yet big enough to be broken out on its own.

I'm also surprised that natural gas is outgrowing everything else.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Natural gas is just Methane and is being pushed by big oil, since it needs all of the infrastructure they already have.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I'm not knocking solar. It's a great technology. It's just not feasible to scale to the point that we would need to scale it to sufficiently power our societies . We only recently developed the technology to make burning methane more feasible. They used to just light it off and burn it at the wells when they would tap it.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It’s just not feasible to scale to the point that we would need to scale it to sufficiently power our societies

Anything to back that up?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

It's a logistical problem basically most people don't live at the equator and that's the good spot for solar where it's three times as effective. We could plaster a quarter of all the land with solar panels and then yeah you have enough. Except you still wouldn't have a dependable energy inputs because sometimes the weather is shitty for a week. So you would still need the massive transition cables to pipe it in from somewhere else that the sun currently is shining. So basically you are going to need to cover massive amounts of land with solar panels. We would need to invest in massive transfer cables. I honestly think that would be a great idea to implement full coverage of solar panels in our cities and cover all things with them. However, do not think that's a viable solution to meet our total energy needs. I do think solar is a viable way to help meet those goals. But it needs to be part of a team, not a solo. Lone Wolf . https://youtu.be/7OpM_zKGE4o?si=2_TW0JeYeA2htQm1

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (4 children)

I asked you if you had anything to back that up. The answer is no.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

We could use solar (or other renewables/nuclear) to power hydrogen fuel cells, then take the energy where it's needed.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (9 children)

Hydrogen transport is also a mass of pain in the ass because hydrogen being the noblest of gases and only a single hydrogen molecule likes to seep out of every container we've ever made and there's no way to permanently contain it.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I'm surprised that solar isn't yet big enough to be broken out on its own.

and that's the problem. It's not even enough of our power generation to be its own separate entity on the graph, but these people expect it to just magically power the planet in the next 5 years.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 11 months ago (1 children)

A lot of countries are doing just fine using only renewables to replace energy generation from fossil fuels. Nuclear is really expensive while renewables are the cheapest. There's just no reason to use nuclear.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago (1 children)

there are three.

Albania, Iceland, and Paraguay obtain essentially all of their electricity from renewable sources (Albania and Paraguay 100% from hydroelectricity, Iceland 72% hydro and 28% geothermal). You may notice Solar is not mentioned.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I didn't say countries that already successfully did it, I meant countries that are in the process of doing so. Germany, for example, has no nuclear energy and is getting 60-70% of its energy from renewables. There are countries that are already further along but building renewables takes time. Building a nuclear power plant also takes years but you get nothing from it until it's finished.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Germany, for example, has no nuclear energy and is getting 60-70% of its energy from renewables.

Gas and Coal are 40% of the Power generation inside German borders but that is not the sum of German consumption. When nuclear was cut more gas was used. This also completely ignores the electricity generated elsewhere in the EU that Germany is Importing.

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/germany/electricity-imports-and-exports/electricity-imports-france

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1403646/germany-monthly-distribution-of-electricity-production-by-source/

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago

This replay and its sources fit as a reply to your comment as well

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Germany can do that because they opened new coal plants, plus they can buy cheap (mostly nuclear) electricity from France when their renewables are performing suboptimally and they need to meet high demand

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago

No, that's just false. Germany has been steadily reducing the amount of coal they use in favor of renewables and could easily sustain itself with the energy it produces but sometimes it's cheaper to buy from other countries. Most of the time that's wind energy from the nordic countries but sometimes it's nuclear from France. France is paying billions of Euros to subsidize nuclear tho. Germany also only imported 2% of its energy in 2023 and 25% of that (so 0,5% from the total), was from French nuclear energy.

Sources:

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago

This is the way.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

I'll take "useless arguing over a conflict of interests that realistically doesn't exist because none of the people arguing can actually do anything to solve the problem" for 500, Jennings.

jesus christ these category titles are getting really bad

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Aww you said feasible. I have fifteen unfeasible plans that I love including cement batteries.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

My favorite unfeasible plan involves shitloads of Sterling engines

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

If a wind turbine is bombed, it’s not a hazard for thousands of years. Given humanity’s need to kill each other, nuclear plants are a time bomb

They hated him because he told them the truth

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

This used to be true, and there was enormous investment in nuclear power.

But the truth is that renewables have come a LONG way these past few decades. In many places, renewables is the cheapest energy to invest in, cheaper than even Fossil fuels in many cases. And much much cheaper than nuclear.

Why build a nuclear plant when you can build diversified renewable energy sources for the same price or less?

As a very small added bonus, renewables can't be turned into bombs. Yet.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Its not cheaper if you only count the generation side you are ignoring Storage and Capacity factor those in and its not cheaper anymore.

Renewables are great while in combination with peaker plants as the renewables produce a good amount of the base load when the sun shines wind blows etc, That energy generation is dirt cheap no arguments there. The Issue is those Peaker Plants are OIL COAL and GAS fired in most cases. The ideal solution IMHO would be to phase out the peakers and replace them with grid scale power storage augmented with nuclear base stations to manage load and reduce the need for new construction of grid scale power storage. The issue with your suggestion is these grid scale batteries are projected to cost billions of dollars per project and if we forgo nuclear base stations to provide base load we would need a massive amount of these grid scale power storage stations in addition to also then having to generating roughly 90% more power than we do now from renewables alone to replace fossil fuels and to make up for inefficiencies in a storage dependent grid due to the fact that there would be constant losses of energy every time its transferred from generation to storage to use potential. Its simpler and more efficient make power on demand so I think we should take the current infrastructure and modify it. A turbine cares not what turns it. We can rip out coal fired oil fired and gas fired infrastructure and replace it with a modern generation of Small Modular Reactors ( it is proven technology ask the US NAVY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_naval_reactors ) With Peaker plants being transitioned to base stations this would make it so that the excess energy stored during the day can be tapped but we would not have to depend on it. Instead we can dynamically as needed (as the day ends in solar heavy locations or on calm days in wind heavy locations) start up the nuclear base stations to keep the grid energized using the batteries as a buffer on both ends as the Nuclear plants can not be cycled as quickly as fossil plants but can provide steady power on demand.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

Its not cheaper if you only count the generation side you are ignoring Storage and Capacity factor those in and its not cheaper anymore.

Cost per kW:

Nuclear: $6,695–7,547

Solar PV with storage: $1,748

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

You ran for the hills when I called out your mistruths earlier. You're still lying.

Here's more:

"Roughly speaking, the total cost of these solar-plus-storage facilities would be:

$8.4 billion for 10.55 GWdc of solar power, fully installed at 80¢/watt

$527 million for hypothetical power grid upgrades at 5¢/Watt

$7.8 billion for 39.3 GWh of energy storage fully installed at $200/kWh

Around $16.8 billion grand total, no incentives

So, Georgia, pv magazine USA just saved you more than $13 billion (as of today anyway)."

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/08/05/youve-got-30-billion-to-spend-and-a-climate-crisis-nuclear-or-solar/

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