this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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Confidently Incorrect

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When people are way too smug about their wrong answer.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 years ago (2 children)

So, this annoys me to no end, because the first dude is technically right, Lincoln came in to office with no intention to outlaw slavery, although he did want to keep it confined to the states it was already legal in. And what he’s actually wrong about is that Lincoln made it about slavery to get the support of the northerners - he actually made sure that it northerners believed it was about “keeping the union together.” Remember the union still had the slave states of Kentucky, West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Missouri. He wanted to keep these states in the union.

Lincoln (through Seward) stressed the anti-slavery stuff to Europeans, many of whom wanted to intervene on the side of the confederacy because that was where they got their cotton. The industrial north also was a threat to industrial Europe, but the agrarian south was a source of raw materials. But by stressing the anti-slavery stuff in Europe (and then of course the emancipation proclamation which didn’t actually outlaw slavery in the border states) he ensured Europe could not intervene on behalf of the confederacy since it would be so unpopular. So, in the states it was about the union, abroad it was about slavery.

But anyway, he’s right on a technicality that, for Lincoln, it was not really about slavery. But this does not mean the war itself was not about slavery. His conclusion rests on the assumption that in a war, two sides must be diametrically opposed to one another, so if Lincoln and the north were not fighting against slavery, therefore the south could not be fighting for slavery.

But as others have pointed out, the south explicitly says they are fighting to preserve the institution of slavery. They are worried about waning political power also - if Lincoln stopped the spread of slavery across the continent as he desired, the growth of free states would mean congress would not be as evenly split between slave and free states, opening up the possibility of legislating an end to slavery.

So the war was about slavery, and would not have occurred without slavery. Often we point to the Battle of Sumter as the beginning of the civil war, but many historians also point out the popular civil war could instead be said to begin in 1859 in Harper’s Ferry, or with Bleeding Kansas and the Pottawotamie Massacre, or maybe the caning of Charles sumner or the murder of Elijah Lovejoy, or any of the political battles that arose when the US began to expand west and the question arose “what about slavery.” All of these events are directly about slavery and it would be difficult to argue otherwise.

And also, just as a last thing “many southern generals didn’t care about slavery.” I have no idea how true that is and it doesn’t matter, because the war was not fought because of southern generals but because of politicians, southern landowners, and an economy resting on the subjugation of Black people, and that’s why they were fighting.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is a really well thought out and written comment. Thanks for an excellent contribution 👍🏼

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

Thank you! I deal with these people in my daily life so I’m always primed for an effort post on it

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Most Americans naturally want the war to be about slavery—and they object to allegations it's not—because that's the morally righteous position, which is the position they want to believe their side held. So telling them the war was about slavery for the South, but the North really didn't give a shit, is not what they want to hear.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

yeah I agree, people have a hard time hearing any criticism of Lincoln. I wouldn't say that he "didn't give a shit" because he was committed to stopping it's spread into the western territories (the position that caused secession). And he did express moral opposition to slavery. But he was a moderate and felt bound by the constitution that he couldn't actually outlaw slavery in the south, hoping that to stop its spread west would cause a gradual end to slavery as slaveowner political power wanes.

So he's a liberal who goes to war mostly to keep the union together, and his first thought is not really about the slaves. But he did do things, like when he issues the emancipation proclamation he ensures there is a legal argument that the slaves freed by it will remain free after the war. So it's not like Lincoln didn't care about the slaves. He was extremely moderate, but he did hold generally anti-slavery views.

Also it's hard to say "the north didn't give a shit" since abolitionism was strong in the north, John Brown was celebrated in the north. There were a lot of people who cared and were extremely opposed to slavery in the north. You have soldiers singing songs celebrating John Brown. Of course this was definitely not true of everyone lol.

So I don't think it's fair to just say the north was completely unconcerned with slavery, but there's a lot of complexity there, especially with Lincoln, and ultimately at the end of the day Lincoln had no plans to outlaw slavery and didn't declare war because of slavery.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago

As I learned it in public schools long before everything became a political football, slavery was not the main focus of Lincoln's administration initially. It was all about the constitution and the Union. The seceding states, however, had slavery very much on the top of their list of grievances. Lincoln politically embraced abolition as part of his effort to rally the unionists and gain the support of the slaves somewhere in the early stages. I don't know if it was before or after secession. I suspect it was after the secession because he was focusing on the constitutional issues of dividing the union.

So, yes the civil war was all about slavery. The southern states wanted to expand slavery into the new territories, which was not allowed in the constitution. They wanted to protect and expand slavery as an institution. Some useful information from the Lincoln Home.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (4 children)

It wasn't about slavery, I mean yeah the vice president of the confederacy made a speech saying slavery was the cornerstone of the CSA, and multiple seceding states released documents that explicitly stated they were seceding in large part because of slavery, and all the seceding states were slave owning states, and West Virginia exists because they split from Virginia as they had no slaves and thus no reason to fight to hold them, and the CSA constitution mandated that any new state would be required to be a slave state... but... umm...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Whenever a chud gives me the “it wASnT AbOut SLavErY!” Line I always go ask them to read the seceding states articles of secession. South Carolina is my particular favorite since they started all.

 But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of slavery has led to a disregard of their obligations.... [The northern] States...have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress, or render useless any attempt to execute them.... Thus the constitutional compact has been deliberately broken....

The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

Those [non-slaveholding] States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of Slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace...property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the Common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the Common Government, because he has declared that the "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that Slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the subversion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship persons, who, by the Supreme Law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive to its peace and safety.

Not about slavery though… fucking dipshits

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Mississippi's is exclusively about slavery as well

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A few years ago one of my conservative neighbors tried to drop the line on me that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. I opened up the South Carolina Articles of Succession and read it out loud to him. To his credit, he accepted it and changed his mind.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

You have to really have some heavy cognitive dissonance to hear the words and not realize the lost cause myth is bullshit.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

No it was about states rights, like the right to, ummm, nevermind.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

You missed that CSA states weren't allowed to end slavery.

So if conservatives meant things when they say words - the civil war was coincidentally about slavery-having states seeking new slavery-having allies to continue doing slavery together, after flipping out when an anti-slavery party took the white house.

But it was totes mcgoats about states' rights. Except the right to end slavery.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I mean they're not entirely wrong, fighting slavery was a political tool not a moral imperative as it should have been and Lincoln didn't in fact want to unilaterally shut it down he wanted the nation to figure it out ideally without violence.

Ed: books people, I'm not interpreting anything Lincoln was extremely vocal about it. Listen to Lincoln, he knows Lincoln weirdly enough.

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/slavery.htm

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It was a moral imperative for much of the North. Lincoln only barely scraped out the Republican nomination. His main opponent was William Seward who was a "radical" abolitionist. Had Seward won the nomination, there may have been some fracturing of the newly formed Republican party. So while there was indeed a portion of the population who felt the complete abolition of slavery was too far, a huge chunk agreed with Seward. In particular, his own wife, Francis Seward. She abhorred slavery and I urge everyone to read her writings upon the subject.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You're part of the problem when you give "but ackshually" cover to them to continue this nonsense

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Yes yes, history is nuanced but your actually a Nazi if you recognize that fact....

You see the problem there boss?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

History is nuanced, yes. Lost Cause bullshit and slavery apologists can GTFO tho. They're not arguing in good faith so when you chime in to let everyone know how smart you are by supporting that nonsense, you know what it looks like, right?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Bro it's factually correct, you can read Lincoln's diary discussing it. The statement "the civil war was about slavery" isn't wrong it just lacking nuance in the same way the statement I added to was.

Resolutions upon the subject of domestic slavery having passed both branches of the General Assembly at its present session, the undersigned hereby protest against the passage of the same.

They believe that the institution of slavery is founded on both injustice and bad policy; but that the promulgation of abolition doctrines tends rather to increase than to abate its evils.

They believe that the Congress of the United States has no power, under the constitution, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the different States.

They believe that the Congress of the United States has the power, under the constitution, to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia; but that that power ought not to be exercised unless at the request of the people of said District.

The difference between these opinions and those contained in the said resolutions, is their reason for entering this protest."

Dan Stone, A. Lincoln, Representatives from the county of Sangamon

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Dude, you think if chattel slavery never existed in the South that there still would have been a civil war?

The civil war was 100% about slavery.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Please quote me on that one boss.

Please refer to where I said it wasn't.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

fighting a war over slavery was so fun for texas; they did it twice and the american civil war was the second one.

and then continued with segregation; you would think they learn their lesson by now. lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

It was about slavery, but it wasn't about slavery in terms of what Lincoln was trying to do initially. He would have actively allowed it to continue if it kept the nation together, but ultimately had to use it to build efforts for the war.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

So, prepare for nuance. There is the slightest bit of truth in what they're saying. Lincoln did not initially make the war about slavery. Yes, the south 100% did leave over slavery, but originally the war was just about getting the states back together. It still feels incredibly disingenuous to say "the war wasn't about slavery" because of that though. For one side leaving it was, it just wasn't about slavery to the other side yet. I'd have to see the context of this comment but I feel hard pressed to imagine it as anything other than Lost Cause propaganda.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They are part right, if we really want to give them the benefit of the doubt. For the south it was absolutely about preserving slavery, but for the north abolishing it was still kind of a controversial topic.

The decision to make it about ending slavery from Lincoln's part was part tactical, even though he personally always wanted to do so anyway. It made a lot of former slaves and other black people available for enlistment and also secured the support of people opposing slavery.

But initially it was more about the southern paranoia of the north forcing them to abolish slavery and since the north could not provide any security about this, they decided to quit, which lead the north to try and preserve the union.

At least as far as I know.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

There was an article I read a wile back so I may be misremembering. It claimed they the wealth of southern plantations was the slaves, the land and other assets were worth hardly anything. Many of these places had large amounts of debt tied to the value of their slaves. The fear was not just that the north would make slavery illegal, but that the actions being taken to limit slavery in new states would cause the price of slaves to drop and make all the rich slave owners broke.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

There are few things that exhaust and discourage me more than reductionists shouting past each other.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

the only thing I can think of that's worse is the guy who stands on the sidelines, refuses to take a position and shits on everyone as though he's contributing to the discussion.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I stopped trying to contribute to battles between reductionists many years ago, since they're not coincidentally also binarists, so each just takes the fact that I'm not 100% in agreement with them to mean that I'm on the falsely dichotomous other side.

That's an awful lot of why they're so exhausting and discouraging - because I know from bitter experience that there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. I'm constantly tempted to respond - just, if nothing else, to for instance point out that something as enormously complex as the US Civil War cannot possibly rightly be said to have been about one specific thing - but I've learned that that can't possibly accomplish anything.

Should I then have just kept my mouth shut? Probably, in much the same way as I'd likely just keep walking if I saw two drunks brawling in an alley.

But I didn't, and so be it.

And who knows? Maybe somebody somewhere will read this and think, "You know... it really is kind of dumb to reduce a complex issue to just one single idea, then get into shouting matches with people who have reduced it to some other single idea."

Or not. And again, so be it.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 years ago

Old repost is old

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 years ago

Lost Cause Cultists make me sick.