this post was submitted on 04 May 2024
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/15001340

"Such an invasion could lead to horrific massacres and raise scenarios of a second Nakba," the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights said recently. "After 200 days of horrific genocidal acts in Gaza, the real objectives of the attack are the continuation of the 76-year-long ongoing Nakba and the erasure and genocidal destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza. Israel is laying the groundwork to fulfill its settler-colonial plan of colonizing Gaza."

Human rights defenders have warned that Israel may ultimately seek to ethnically cleanse as many Palestinians as possible from Gaza.

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[–] [email protected] 171 points 11 months ago (7 children)

Israel would "move people out of Rafah, the main humanitarian hub in the enclave, to al-Mawasi

Yeah, that's not their plan. There's 1.42 million people in Rafah right now, which is 25 square miles. That gives it a population density of 56,800 per square mile, making it the 25th most densely populated city in the world - and with intact infrastructure enough for only a tiny fraction of that number.

So, Israel supposedly wants to move all these people to al-Mawasi. Now, al-Mawasi is barren, with; the last official count I could find said there were about 1500 people living there in a small Bedouin town. It's also only about six square miles total.

Let's say that Hamas is 10% of the population - I don't think it is, but let's use that number. That means there's 1,278,000 innocent civilians they want to move to al-Mawasi. That would mean a population density of 213,000 per square mile. That would be twice the population density of Manila. And there is no infrastructure. They're just taking a million people and throwing them into a barren desert next to the sea and saying, "Not our problem." There's no food, no water, no toilets, no shelter, no medical facilities, no electricity, no shelter from the heat - and no way to quickly make any of these things appear in enough quantity to matter.

The Palestinians are already on the verge of famine. This will make things worse, and disease is absolutely going to decimate the population. And then they'll decide that al-Mawasi is hiding Hamas, and they'll go after that as well.

Fuck Israel.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Let’s say that Hamas is 10% of the population - I don’t think it is, but let’s use that number.

The Palestinians are already on the verge of famine. This will make things worse, and disease is absolutely going to decimate the population.

Decimation was the Roman practice of killing 1 out of every 10 mutinous/deserter (i.e., guilty of something) soldiers to punish an entire legion while still keeping it operational as a combat unit. Here we have the opposite. It is killing 9 innocents to get to also kill 1 additional (very hypothetically) guilty person.

This is the saddest "um ackchyually" I have ever written.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 11 months ago

Shrewd analysis - thanks for sharing!

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The Palestinians are already on the verge of famine.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/05/middleeast/gaza-famine-world-food-programme-intl-hnk/index.html

Northern Gaza is experiencing a “full-blown famine” which is rapidly spreading across the strip...the World Food Programme warned

Gaza is not that big. The situation is already horrific and it's about to get so much worse.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago

It's going to be a lot worse than mere "decimation".

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago

Okay hear me out… what if Israel checked every person and put a tattoo on their arm if they were not Hamas. Do you think they’ll catch the irony?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago

Thank you for your research.

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[–] [email protected] 99 points 11 months ago (1 children)

"Go to Rafah and you'll be safe. Also, fuck you and get out of Rafah or we'll kill you."

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago

You just summarized zionism (fascism)

[–] [email protected] 34 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

Common Dreams can be a little much some times. Here's Politico's take which is a bit more dry.

Some important notes though. Aid groups absolutely dispute that there's an ability to fit everyone in the designated area; feed the people that can fit; and that Israel will allow everyone who wants to evacuate to do so in good faith.

So there are very good objections to this plan. If the IDF let people pass without mass arrests or randomly deciding to shoot at the people crossing their lines then that would be good. But it has not been the norm. Which brings us to the next problem. The IDF has behaved so criminally, the people of Gaza do not trust their announcements of where to go for safety.

At this point the only correct answer is an immediate ceasefire. The removal of all IDF troops from Gaza. And an international war crimes tribunal.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (8 children)

Only correct answer is an multi-national subjugation force to kill the IDF forces in Gaza, then push into Israel and take the current government into custody to be put on Nuremberg-style trials while setting up an interim government in Israel.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Gaza has like at least five years of martial law in its future during reconstruction.

Hamas is charge of the time table.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I don't doubt for one second that Israel is likely planning something like this. But let's be careful about using sources that are just as biased as the ones that the other side uses.

If you're reporting on news from some far-left website while at the same time decrying right-wing bias like Fox News and it's ilk, then you lose the moral high ground.

There's plenty of regular journalism that documents Israel's bullshit without having to resort to non-credible sources. Stick to that or there's no point in fighting because we've already lost.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You might not agree with their left wing bias but you can't realistically argue that Common Dreams is not a credible source.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You could if the title does not match the article.

  • Israel may forcibly displace 1.2 million prior to ground invasion. Gives Hamas deadline for cease fire.

  • oxfam warns a ground invasion could be catastrophic for those in the city.

  • experts believe it may pave the way for eventually ethnic cleansing by Israel.

Make no mistake, a shit load of worrying information here. No where in this article does it say "here is the plan for ethnic cleansing" like stated in the title.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

They’re not quoting the IDF’s plans for what they called an “ethnic cleansing.” They’re quoting someone who characterized the plans as an ethnic cleansing. I think it’s foolish to assume they meant to imply the IDF was waving around plans for something titled “the ethnic cleansing of Arabs in Rafah.”

Commondreams is a good outlet. Yes, they may editorialize and are not shy about their left-leaning positions, but that doesn’t inherently make an outlet untrustworthy. Fox calling themselves “fair and balanced” and using charged language in their chyrons—for example, I was at the gym and I saw them referring to the Campus sit-ins as “riots” and the participants as “antisemites.” (If I’m remembering those correctly, but it was insanely loaded language of their own creation)—is what leads them to be a problematic outlet. They skew facts, obscure the truth, and heavily edit out anything that doesn’t rile up their viewership.

Commondreams has a mission to give good information that may cater to the left, but they’re a non-profit outlet. And there is an inherent difference between left-bias and right-bias. Right bias has to alter reality to fit their narrative. The established left-leaning outlets like Commondreams aren’t altering and obscuring. They’re highlighting what they see as important information that, yes, adheres to a more left-leaning worldview, but what does that mean in this context? They’re willfully calling out Israel when “center” and right-leaning outlets are beholden to them. They’ll investigate issues that are important to civil rights, privacy, etc. But that doesn’t mean their worldview warps the reality of the topics they cover. They’re just more relevant to progressives/leftists.

Now, there are definitely a lot of terrible, probably non-journalist run outlets that really cropped up around 2016 like those “blue news” Wordpress sites or whatever that used to fly around Reddit. There is a way to be untrustworthy and left/liberal-biased. Definitely not saying it’s impossible. But it’s a different beast when discussing long-established, trustworthy left-leaning sources.

You know how it’s been said “reality has a left-leaning bias?” Well, that’s pretty relevant here. To be left-biased, you still report on facts that speak to leftist people. To be right-biased, it means you’re singling out minority groups, catering to big business in disingenuous ways (because that’s how they operate. They can basically run propaganda as private institutions, and the right-biased outlets unquestioningly run with it.) Left-biased outlets are critical, right-leaning uncritical. That’s a huge difference.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (6 children)

Well said. Like Democracy Now there’s bias in the choices of what stories to report on but the reporting itself is accurate.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

DN! Is a great example. They’ll report on the pipeline protests, the genocide in Gaza…they’ll cover things an outlet that’s trying to gain more viewership by catering to “fairness” like NYT, WaPo, CNN, etc. wouldn’t dare touch—or would go out of their way to not take a position on. You’d never catch Amy Goodman bringing on a fossil fue exec to hear their opinions on the pipeline protesters and how they should all go back to work or whatever.

Catering to “fairness,” (the best way I’ve ever heard this problem described) is, assuming the republicans adopted flat eartherism, NYT would run an article saying “democrats and republicans can’t agree on shape of earth.”

That’s ignoring basic facts to cater to a larger audience and not “appear biased.” But one of those positions is inherently wrong. The factionalism of the US political system doesn’t change that fact. Although it does immediately cut your audience in half if you can’t appear to treat the absurd point s somehow equal.

Treating climate change scientists and the spokespeople for Exxon as having two differing points on a debatable topic is catering to fairness. To the point that it turns your reporting into complete fucking trash.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

You're right. It's still to early to call if israel is planning to kill all Palestinians and commit Ethnic Cleansing. Who knows, can you even call Genocide a Genocide? Let's ask the israeli government about this

Israeli finance minister calls for 'utter destruction' of Gaza's Rafah, end to truce talks

“No half jobs. Rafah, Deir al-Balah, Nuseirat, total and utter destruction,” Smotrich said, referring to the two cities in Gaza and the Nuseirat refugee camp.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I never said it was "too early to tell".

I said, and I'll repeat, there is plenty of evidence and reports to share without having to resort to unaccredited media sources.

That's what THEY do. We can, and NEED to be better.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So, just to make sure, you do agree that Israel is committing a genocide?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (3 children)

This description given by CommonDreams is by far the most accurate one.

To call this unbalanced is to pretend that israel is not committing Genocide or Ethnic cleansing.

When every shitty propaganda outlet shills for israel ~~killing~~ "dying" people we're supposed to look the other way. But when a NEWSpaper goes "israel is doing Genocide" everyone loses their jimmies. The hypocrisy is astounding.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (10 children)

How trustable is this source? Just curious because never knew about the site.

EDIT: you can downvote, that’s okay. But I would appreciate an actual answer as well.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago

It's a super partisan one. I don't know if they lie, but they definitely spin.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 11 months ago
[–] [email protected] 25 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If they really do that the irony of Jews doing ethnic cleansing would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[–] [email protected] 124 points 11 months ago (8 children)

Please don't call Israel "the Jews." I am a Jew and I do not stand with Israel. Israel wants you to think all Jews are Israelis and all Israelis are Jews.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Just to add to this; half of the global Jewish population lives in the US. We’re not all Israeli.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yep, I've never even been to Israel. I don't particularly want to go other than seeing the archaeology. I was born in Indiana. I have far more in common with Christians from Indiana than I do a Jew from Haifa.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 11 months ago

The fun thing with the people downvoting my above comment is that it's hard to know if they're pissed off because I don't support Israel or don't like that I'm a Jew.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 11 months ago (7 children)

I am not a Jew, but I have to recognize that many of the people most fiercely standing up against Israeli human rights violations are Jews.

In the USA, Bernie Sanders, Robbert Reich and Chuck Schumer are three Jewish politicians that have been very consistent in their messaging.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago

I’d argue they’re notable because they’re Jewish, and are afforded an odd ‘extra legitimacy’ to criticize Israel because of that - until the ‘self hating Jew’ trope is brought out…

I am constantly disappointed that society as a whole cannot see through the obvious ploys by the hyper-partisans to hijack and disrupt honest discussion by treating all criticism as anti-Semitic

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago

Me too. I'm seriously considering buying a kippah to visually make this point.

For the sake of completeness, Israel does happen to be Jewish, just like Hamas happens to be Muslim. And yeah, in light of recent history that's ironic. Hopefully nobody here has forgotten we don't all agree with our (distant, in my case) relatives.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Remember to vote blue, everyone!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (11 children)

Look, if we don't let biden let netanyahu firebomb Rafah, then trump will let netanyahu firebomb Rafah, and we don't want that

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 10 months ago

Ghettos of WW2 are making a comeback, who’s forcing people into those ghettos will SHOCK you!

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago

“Many of us like to ask ourselves, ‘What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?’ The answer is, you’re doing it. Right now.”

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago

This news outlet is disreputable.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago

Biden's solution will be to rush them billions in more money and weapons

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