this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2024
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Showerthoughts

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. The most popular seem to be lighthearted clever little truths, hidden in daily life.

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Wouldn't they benefit from more people? Of course it would come with the condition of learning the language at an acceptable level and that being tied to residency.

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[–] [email protected] 100 points 9 months ago (4 children)

Because people fear having their culture and race replaced by immigrants. Even if they're not overtly racist, few people wish to become a minority in "their own country."

The US is famously a melting pot, and yet we still have a bunch of descendants of white immigrants from Europe who fear that South Americans will take over; that Mexican culture will replace good old-fashioned hodge-podge Western European culture. That their language will become less dominant. That they'll find themselves strangers in their own country.

It's usually an indistinct fear. It seems obvious from the verbiage in the dog-whistles, but white European immigrant descendants don't want to become second-class.

Now, if we treated our own minorities well, they wouldn't be so afraid. They wouldn't be afraid that they'd be the ones with Hispanic cops kneeling on their necks; or that Hispanic immigrants would be living in giant homes and they'd themselves be the ones having to eak out a living as seasonal workers.

I think it's not despicable to want to preserve your cultural heritage, your cultural language, and to have your country legislated with the values you grew up with; but people react poorly when they think it's happening.

What I most despise in the Republicans in the US is that they're advocating for preserving cultural values that never existed broadly in the US. The closest subculture to what they're pushing is a return to the Confederate South: religion, and white supremacy. The Confederates got their asses handed to them, but the racist fuckers never gave up their values, most most Americans are blind to what their real agenda is. And they've been good insurgents, cleverly taking advantage of weak areas in our democracy to return power to a minority: themselves. It's been said and it's true: if America was a true democracy and we selected leaders by popular vote, no Republican under their current platform would ever be president again.

Anyway, getting back to your question: immigrants bring their own culture with them, and very few completely abandon it and adopt the culture and language of their new country. This dilutes the host country's native culture, and people are afraid of that. In the US, it's the highest form of hypocrisy, because our native culture displaced the indigenous culture, and now we're afraid of someone else doing the same to us.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I agree with everything up until you said “dilutes”. I would argue that immigrant cultures don’t dilute the host country’s culture, they add to it. In other words, the culture that was there still exists in the same amount and in the same “concentration”, and immigrants bring their culture to newly developing areas of the country/state.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Its very hard to add more of something else and not have dilution.

Take 1 litre of vodka and add 1 decilitre of water - there will be more fluid but the vodka will be?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago

The word has negative connotations, but I stand by it. I an not saying there result isn't stronger, but if you extend cultural mixing out to the maximum - say humans and the planet survives another thousand years, and global travel is no harder than traveling to the next town over - what you end up with is homogeneity, and this would be sad, I think. Imagine it: the entire world speaking some pidgin derivative mashup of Mandarin, English, and Hindi, with essentially the same culture everywhere on the planet. Just as has already happened, languages are lost, because nobody speaks them natively anymore. All that's left of the original cultures are some UNESCO sites and preserved old movies. I can't say the world wouldn't be stronger for it, but in the process, something irrecoverable is lost.

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[–] [email protected] 63 points 9 months ago (5 children)

The birth rates are low because of the terrible environment that doesn't support having and raising children. All you're doing is importing more people who will also barely have any children within a generation or so. Mass immigration is just throwing bodies at the bottom of the pyramid scheme. You can see this in action in Canada where housing is absolutely unaffordable, but large numbers of immigrants are brought in who have to work for shitty wages and live with multiple families in a single rental unit.

The screaming about low birth rate is because corporations want to keep a high labor pool so they can drive down the price of labor while keeping up demand for consumption.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The screaming about low birth rate is because corporations want to keep a high labor pool so they can drive down the price of labor while keeping up demand for consumption.

It's not only that. By the time you want to retire, there won't be enough people to pay taxes for your retirement fund. With more young people than old, that is less of a problem.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

This is one area where we're supposed to benefit from the greatly increased automation. We don't need a huge mass of people doing make-work. The current situation is that we force people to do make-work to continue making on-paper profits which mostly go to a tiny set of wealthy people. The current situation is unsustainable even if population growth increased because it's a pyramid scheme. The system relies on infinite growth.

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Countries like Korea don't have a cultire of welcoming people from outside and therefor you would have so many clashes that a huge number of imigrants - which is needed - would destroy the country. There is no one here who knows how to treat and integrate those immigrants. There are no programs for them, etc. and even if you know the language you still have huge culture clashes.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 9 months ago (2 children)

A lot of eastern Asian countries are extremely xenophobic in other words.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I think there’s a difference between being prejudice towards an outside group and not wanting your own culture replaced.

There is nothing inherently wrong with countries and their cultures not wanting to have others integrate. In the past this is what helped them survive.

It’s only a big issue in countries like the US that want to be a mixing bowl/melting pot and also are being xenophobic.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Do you understand the difference between integration and immigration?

Yes there is something wrong with not wanting to allow people from other cultures to integrate into your own.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Because you are xenophobic yourself, yes.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

That’s a weak argument. Just because I bring up another point of view doesn’t mean I subscribe to the view mentioned, which I don’t.

If a country doesn’t want to allow immigration then that’s perfectly moral. It may eventually kill their culture off in the long run but it’s not xenophobic by definition.

If a country does allow immigration and then is prejudice towards a group coming in then absolutely that’s xenophobic.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Backtrack if you want, but what you said was xenophobic by definition and I'm not going to bother arguing semantics.

Edit: I like how you completely changed your comment after I replied. Very cool

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

A lot of Europe did so and for this exact purpose. Immigrants are net contributors of tax money and help a lot with demographics. Now however European countries have a sizable portion of their countries as immigrants and it turns out a lot of people feel like their culture is getting lost.

Add that up with corruption is more out in the open, austerity after the 2008 financial crisis generally failed as a policy and people are very prone to believe "Immigrants are to blame" and vote for right wing parties since they run on an anti-establishment platform.

The left generally believes that we need more immigrants and more social programs and so on but there has been a massive crusade on tax rates which hinders the governments ability to pay for them.

This is all coming together now and the far right narrative is being given a chance in Europe with their anti-immigration stance.

In my opinion this is basically the centre-right trying to get votes by cutting taxes, end up taking on massive debt or gutting quality of life social programs so the only way forward is to fuck over minorities and making the most vulnerable people suffer for the greater good. But tax the well-off, rich, wealth, land, capital gains, profits? Nooooo, can't do that because they fund the political parties. 🙃

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Add Canada to that list. 1 million immigrants a year and everything is collapsing - our housing, healthcare, education, nothing can keep up.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (6 children)

Odd I was in B.C. about a month ago. Seemed like civilization was still operating there.

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 9 months ago

Xenophobia propped up by political groups. Many official immigration programs existed in the 19th century that, when allowed to, had immigrants integrated into society.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I talked to Japanese colleagues about this a lot. The issue isn't just plain old xenophobia. In a lot of cultures, when someone gets married, there are considerations about marrying 'the right kind' for the family. As silly as that might sound to U.S. 'melting pot' ears, these could be tribal, economic, linguistic, geographic, class, education, age, gender, and yes, race.

In traditional settings, the elders have to bless that marriage, welcome the person, and ideally have the families mesh together and be on the same page.

Inviting foreigners with vastly different backgrounds on almost all those axes, it's a pretty tall order to ask everyone to change those attitudes. And saying one family should close their eyes and do it for the sake of the country while their neighbors hold out for a 'suitable' match is going to be tough. The demographic 'time bomb' has been a known issue since the 80s and people are still resistant to change.

At some point, though, realities catch up.

My bet would be it would take a generational turnover and a few years of popular sitcoms normalizing it.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 9 months ago (1 children)

So, indirect xenophobia. That's much better.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 9 months ago

Call it cultural inertia if you prefer.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 9 months ago

Wouldn’t they benefit from more people?

The wealthy win when there's more workers than work.

Historically the greatest gains in workers rights and the times we make the most gains against wealth inequality is when there isn't a surplus of workers.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Xenophobia and racism, mostly. And yes, it's a solution to the aging demographic crisis many countries face (at least in the medium-term).

I remember seeing a video of a presentation back in the Bush years by some neo-con group that advocated for immigration to Pentagon or DoD officials or something. The argument for immigration was mostly the same: we have an aging population, so we could integrate immigrants (who are statistically younger) to solve this issue. I didn't agree much with the broader idea of the presentation though. The broader idea was that there were still some parts of the world not a part of the global U.S.-led hegemony (mostly the middle-east and Africa), and we must spread democracy and capitalism to them. The argument was that globalism/capitalism ensures peace, and that both WWI and WWII happened because globalism was falling apart shortly before those wars. So, to ensure world peace, we need to globalize the entire earth and bring all countries into the the U.S.-led hegemony, even if that means starting wars to spread democracy, lol.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 9 months ago

It's bigotry. Whether it be racism, or classism, or political, or religious, or whatever. People have endless reasons for wanting to consider others as outsiders or lesser or different.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Because most low birth-rate countries are first-world countries, and they generally want to only accept people who can contribute to their society and not be freeloaders to the social system. This means they need to filter out the people that come in, and being first-world countries, there is no shortage of people trying to get in. Sometimes they want low-skill, not-highly educated people just for the cheap labor, but not the person actually staying permanently, hence temporary worker visas. If a foreigner really wants to stay permanently, they then need to ensure that you are educated, able to support yourself long term, do background security checks, and make sure you agree to integrate as you mentioned in the OP.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Ah, your post history tells me you’re in texas, that explains your post. I understand your concern about immigrants coming into a country without proper verification, swarming across the land and replacing the actual native population. Such populations usually move in and immediately assume the land is theirs, and do their best to forget the legacy of the original native people. We can only hope that arrogance and bigotry becomes less common over time.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

You understand wrong. I am an immigrant myself and literally experienced what I said. I merely recounted my own experience and the hoops I had to go through to be admitted into the country and be allowed to stay permanently. I have first hand experience of what the USCIS requires and checks in order to be granted work visas and the entire lengthy and expensive process to get permanent residency if you’re coming from a third world country. You are literally asked in application forms if you’ve ever applied for government benefits and how much debt you currently have, because that raises flags for them. You also have to prove your skills by showing evidence of the work you’ve done and what special skills or knowledge you have that a local can’t otherwise do. I’ve been denied a visa once just because the consular officer wasn’t convinced that my skills were special enough. It was a long drawn out process just to get admitted in. Oh and you also need to undergo a medical exam because they want to make sure you don’t have any serious issues that can potentially make you a burden to the healthcare system.

So before accusing someone of arrogance and bigotry, make sure you actually know where the person is coming from. I am not against immigration at all. I am merely explaining how the government picks and chooses who to admit into the country through their standard immigration processes. Show me a first world country that doesn't have those requirements (except for asylum seekers). I'll wait.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Fear of being outnumbered by immigrants ("they shall not replace us" bullshit) is a big one.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

"We cannot be outnumbered by immigrants!" *die out because their own population won't make babies*

[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago
[–] [email protected] 13 points 9 months ago (11 children)

Why don't fat people hit the gym and eat salad?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This is a gigantic can of worms that will cause arguments.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

So basically the perfect question for the internet?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You have to feed and house the people. The people currently living in those countries may have a shortage of housing already.

I think the "baby boom" from years past has shown that there are too many people around. It's too costly to raise their own kids. People are xenophobic and don't want many immigrants changing their cultures.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago

Similar to high turnover rate at major corporations is the justified fear that the current residents will be abandoned by their own government in an attempt to drive economic incentives

Unless the system is built correctly, you could accidentally drive people away because you didn't build with your citizens best interests in consideration

For example Japan and South Korean (my heritage) has this exact problem still at large as they encourage people to have children yet systems like high working hours in combination with low wages means that people just can't afford to have children

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago (5 children)

Why would you voluntarily create a job scarcity in your own population? Immigration reduces wages, increases prices, strains public services and causes overall decrease in Quality of Life.

Just look at the state of the USA with 28% immigrant population.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 9 months ago (1 children)

techically the US is like 99% immigrants

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Just look at the state of the USA with 28% immigrant population.

Which STILL has the 6th highest GDP per capita (10th if you count tax-haven microstates and overseas territories).

Centuries of mass immigration built the US economy. Y'all are acting like economics is all zero-sum and more people = everyone is poorer, but the amount of jobs doesn't stay constant as the amount of people increases. The US always had an influx of immigrants to fuel the ever-growing economic machine.

There's plenty of reasons why a lot of people in the US can't afford to live in cities, etc. None of it is because of immigration, it's mostly corporate greed and stupid zoning laws.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

The immigrants were not the problem to get the US to the shit state it is in.

That is like saying there is an inverse correlation between the decline in sea-faring pirates and the rising global temperature. Duh.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago

Oh boy, you need so much stellaris /s

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