this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2024
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[–] LenielJerron@lemmy.world 140 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

A big issue that a lot of these tech companies seem to have is that they don't understand what people want; they come up with an idea and then shove it into everything. There are services that I have actively stopped using because they started cramming AI into things; for example I stopped dual-booting with Windows and became Linux-only.

AI is legitimately interesting technology which definitely has specialized use-cases, e.g. sorting large amounts of data, or optimizing strategies within highly restrained circumstances (like chess or go). However, 99% of what people are pushing with AI these days as a member of the general public just seems like garbage; bad art and bad translations and incorrect answers to questions.

I do not understand all the hype around AI. I can understand the danger; people who don't see that it's bad are using it in place of people who know how to do things. But in my teaching for example I've never had any issues with students cheating using ChatGPT; I semi-regularly run the problems I assign through ChatGPT and it gets enough of them wrong that I can't imagine any student would be inclined to use ChatGPT to cheat multiple times after their grade the first time comes in. (In this sense, it's actually impressive technology - we've had computers that can do advanced math highly accurately for a while, but we've finally developed one that's worse at math than the average undergrad in a gen-ed class!)

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 62 points 3 months ago (7 children)

The answer is that it's all about "growth". The fetishization of shareholders has reached its logical conclusion, and now the only value companies have is in growth. Not profit, not stability, not a reliable customer base or a product people will want. The only thing that matters is if you can make your share price increase faster than the interest on a bond (which is pretty high right now).

To make share price go up like that, you have to do one of two things; show that you're bringing in new customers, or show that you can make your existing customers pay more.

For the big tech companies, there are no new customers left. The whole planet is online. Everyone who wants to use their services is using their services. So they have to find new things to sell instead.

And that's what "AI" looked like it was going to be. LLMs burst onto the scene promising to replace entire industries, entire workforces. Huge new opportunities for growth. Lacking anything else, big tech went in HARD on this, throwing untold billions at partnerships, acquisitions, and infrastructure.

And now they have to show investors that it was worth it. Which means they have to produce metrics that show people are paying for, or might pay for, AI flavoured products. That's why they're shoving it into everything they can. If they put AI in notepad then they can claim that every time you open notepad you're "engaging" with one of their AI products. If they put Recall on your PC, every Windows user becomes an AI user. Google can now claim that every search is an AI interaction because of the bad summary that no one reads. The point is to show "engagement", "interest", which they can then use to promise that down the line huge piles of money will fall out of this pinata.

The hype is all artificial. They need to hype these products so that people will pay attention to them, because they need to keep pretending that their massive investments got them in on the ground floor of a trillion dollar industry, and weren't just them setting huge piles of money on fire.

[–] MagicShel@lemmy.zip 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (15 children)

I know I'm an enthusiast, but can I just say I'm excited about NotebookLLM? I think it will be great for documenting application development. Having a shared notebook that knows the environment and configuration and architecture and standards for an application and can answer specific questions about it could be really useful.

"AI Notepad" is really underselling it. I'm trying to load up massive Markdown documents to feed into NotebookLLM to try it out. I don't know if it'll work as well as I'm hoping because it takes time to put together enough information to be worthwhile in a format the AI can easily digest. But I'm hopeful.

That's not to take away from your point: the average person probably has little use for this, and wouldn't want to put in the effort to make it worthwhile. But spending way too much time obsessing about nerd things is my calling.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 17 points 3 months ago (3 children)

From a nerdy perspective, LLMs are actually very cool. The problem is that they're grotesquely inefficient. That means that, practically speaking, whatever cool use you come up with for them has to work in one of two ways; either a user runs it themselves, typically very slowly or on a pretty powerful computer, or it runs as a cloud service, in which case that cloud service has to figure out how to be profitable.

Right now we're not being exposed to the true cost of these models. Everyone is in the "give it out cheap / free to get people hooked" stage. Once the bill comes due, very few of these projects will be cool enough to justify their costs.

Like, would you pay $50/month for NotebookLM? However good it is, I'm guessing it's probably not that good. Maybe it is. Maybe that's a reasonable price to you. It's probably not a reasonable price to enough people to sustain serious development on it.

That's the problem. LLMs are cool, but mostly in a "Hey this is kind of neat" way. They do things that are useful, but not essential, but they do so at an operating cost that only works for things that are essential. You can't run them on fun money, but you can't make a convincing case for selling them at serious money.

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[–] 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world 102 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (25 children)

There is this seeming need to discredit AI from some people that goes overboard. Some friends and family who have never really used LLMs outside of Google search feel compelled to tell me how bad it is.

But generative AIs are really good at tasks I wouldn't have imagined a computer doing just a few year ago. Even if they plateaued in place where they are right now it would lead to major shakeups in humanity's current workflow. It's not just hype.

The part that is over hyped is companies trying to jump the gun and wholesale replace workers with unproven AI substitutes. And of course the companies who try to shove AI where it doesn't really fit, like AI enabled fridges and toasters.

[–] buddascrayon@lemmy.world 72 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The part that is over hyped is companies trying to jump the gun and wholesale replace workers with unproven AI substitutes. And of course the companies who try to shove AI where it doesn't really fit, like AI enabled fridges and toasters.

This is literally the hype. This is the hype that is dying and needs to die. Because generative AI is a tool with fairly specific uses. But it is being marketed by literally everyone who has it as General AI that can "DO ALL THE THINGS!" which it's not and never will be.

[–] five82@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

The obsession with replacing workers with AI isn't going to die. It's too late. The large financial company that I work for has been obsessively tracking hours saved in developer time with GitHub Copilot. I'm an older developer and I was warned this week that my job will be eliminated soon.

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[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 40 points 3 months ago (10 children)

Even if they plateaued in place where they are right now it would lead to major shakeups in humanity's current workflow

Like which one? Because it's now 2 years we have chatGPT and already quite a lot of (good?) models. Which shakeup do you think is happening or going to happen?

[–] locuester@lemmy.zip 21 points 3 months ago (6 children)

Computer programming has radically changed. Huge help having llm auto complete and chat built in. IDEs like Cursor and Windsurf.

I’ve been a developer for 35 years. This is shaking it up as much as the internet did.

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 38 points 3 months ago (15 children)

I hardly see it changed to be honest. I work in the field too and I can imagine LLMs being good at producing decent boilerplate straight out of documentation, but nothing more complex than that.

I often use LLMs to work on my personal projects and - for example - often Claude or ChatGPT 4o spit out programs that don't compile, use inexistent functions, are bloated etc. Possibly for languages with more training (like Python) they do better, but I can't see it as a "radical change" and more like a well configured snippet plugin and auto complete feature.

LLMs can't count, can't analyze novel problems (by definition) and provide innovative solutions...why would they radically change programming?

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[–] Nalivai@lemmy.world 37 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (6 children)

I quit my previous job in part because I couldn't deal with the influx of terrible, unreliable, dangerous, bloated, nonsensical, not even working code that was suddenly pushed into one of the projects I was working on. That project is now completely dead, they froze it on some arbitrary version.
When junior dev makes a mistake, you can explain it to them and they will not make it again. When they use llm to make a mistake, there is nothing to explain to anyone.
I compare this shake more to an earthquake than to anything positive you can associate with shaking.

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[–] Eldritch@lemmy.world 35 points 3 months ago (23 children)

Computers have always been good at pattern recognition. This isn't new. LLM are not a type of actual AI. They are programs capable of recognizing patterns and Loosely reproducing them in semi randomized ways. The reason these so-called generative AI Solutions have trouble generating the right number of fingers. Is not only because they have no idea how many fingers a person is supposed to have. They have no idea what a finger is.

The same goes for code completion. They will just generate something that fills the pattern they're told to look for. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. Because they have no concept of what is right or wrong Beyond fitting the pattern. Not to mention that we've had code completion software for over a decade at this point. Llms do it less efficiently and less reliably. The only upside of them is that sometimes they can recognize and suggest a pattern that those programming the other coding helpers might have missed. Outside of that. Such as generating act like whole blocks of code or even entire programs. You can't even get an llm to reliably spit out a hello world program.

[–] JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz 13 points 3 months ago (10 children)

"It's part of the history of the field of artificial intelligence that every time somebody figured out how to make a computer do something—play good checkers, solve simple but relatively informal problems—there was a chorus of critics to say, 'that's not thinking'"
-Pamela McCorduck

"AI is whatever hasn't been done yet."
- Larry Tesler

That's the curse of the AI Effect.
Nothing will ever be "an actual AI" until we cross the barrier to an actual human-like general artificial intelligence like Cortana from Halo, and even then people will claim it isn't actually intelligent.

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[–] makuus@pawb.social 12 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I never know what to think when I come across a comment like this one—which does describe, even if only at a surface level, how an LLM works—with 50% downvotes. Like, are people angry at reality, is that it?

[–] Eldritch@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago (1 children)

With as much misinformation that's being spread about regarding LLMs. It would only lose more people's comprehension to go into anything more than a generalization.

The problem is people are being sold AGI. But chat GPT and all these other tools don't even remotely qualify for that. They're really nothing more than a glorified Alice chatbot system on steroids. The one neat new trick to all this is that they've automated the training a bit. But these llms have no more comprehension of their output or the input they were given than something like the old Alice chatbot.

These tools have been described as artificial intelligence to layman for decades at this point. It makes it really hard to change that calcified opinion. People would rather believe that it's some magical thing not just probability and maths.

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[–] ssfckdt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 points 3 months ago

This is easy to say about the output of AIs.... if you don't check their work.

Alas, checking for accuracy these days seems to be considered old fogey stuff.

[–] andallthat@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Goldman Sachs, quote from the article:

“AI technology is exceptionally expensive, and to justify those costs, the technology must be able to solve complex problems, which it isn’t designed to do.”

Generative AI can indeed do impressive things from a technical standpoint, but not enough revenue has been generated so far to offset the enormous costs. Like for other technologies, It might just take time (remember how many billions Amazon burned before turning into a cash-generating machine? And Uber has also just started turning some profit) + a great deal of enshittification once more people and companies are dependent. Or it might just be a bubble.

As humans we're not great at predicting these things including of course me. My personal prediction? A few companies will make money, especially the ones that start selling AI as a service at increasingly high costs, many others will fail and both AI enthusiasts and detractors will claim they were right all along.

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[–] nroth@lemmy.world 61 points 3 months ago (2 children)

"Built to do my art and writing so I can do my laundry and dishes" -- Embodied agents is where the real value is. The chatbots are just fancy tech demos that folks started selling because people were buying.

[–] nroth@lemmy.world 24 points 3 months ago (5 children)

Though the image generators are actually good. The visual arts will never be the same after this

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Compare it to the microwave. Is it good at something, yes. But if you shoot your fucking turkey in it at Thanksgiving and expect good results, you're ignorant of how it works. Most people are expecting language models to do shit that aren't meant to. Most of it isn't new technology but old tech that people slapped a label on as well. I wasn't playing Soul Caliber on the Dreamcast against AI openents... Yet now they are called AI opponents with no requirements to be different. GoldenEye on N64 was man VS AI. Madden 1995... AI. "Where did this AI boom come from!"

Marketing and mislabeling. Online classes, call it AI. Photo editors, call it AI.

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[–] bradd@lemmy.world 23 points 3 months ago (7 children)

Eh, my best coworker is an LLM. Full of shit, like the rest of them, but always available and willing to help out.

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[–] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 43 points 3 months ago (4 children)

At a beach restaurant the other night I kept hearing a loud American voice cut across all conversation, going on and on about “AI” and how it would get into all human “workflows” (new buzzword?). His confidence and loudness was only matched by his obvious lack of understanding of how LLMs actually work.

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 36 points 3 months ago (2 children)

"Confidently incorrect" I think describes a lot of AI aficionados.

[–] ameancow@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I would also add "hopeful delusionals" and "unhinged cultist" to that list of labels.

Seriously, we have people right now making their plans for what they're going to do with their lives once Artificial Super Intelligence emerges and changes the entire world to some kind of post-scarcity, Star-Trek world where literally everyone is wealthy and nobody has to work. They think this is only several years away. Not a tiny number either, and they exist on a broad spectrum.

Our species is so desperate for help from beyond, a savior that will change the current status-quo. We've been making fantasies and stories to indulge this desire for millenia and this is just the latest incarnation.

No company on Earth is going to develop any kind of machine or tool that will destabilize the economic markets of our capitalist world. A LOT has to change before anyone will even dream of upending centuries of wealth-building.

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[–] einlander@lemmy.world 36 points 3 months ago (5 children)
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[–] ssfckdt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 29 points 3 months ago (5 children)

So you're saying we wont have any crowdsourced blockchain Web 2.0 AIs?

[–] razm@sh.itjust.works 15 points 3 months ago

Quantum! don't forget quantum, you filthy peasant.

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[–] Novamdomum@fedia.io 26 points 3 months ago (2 children)

"Today’s hype will have lasting effects that constrain tomorrow’s possibilities."

Nope. No it won't. I'd love to have the patience to be more diplomatic but they're just wrong... and dumb.

I'm getting so sick of these anti AI cultists who seem to be made up of grumpy tech nerds behaving like "I was using AI before it was cool" hipsters and panicking artists and writers. Everyone needs to calm their tits right down. AI isn't going anywhere. It's giving creative and executive options to millions of people that just weren't there before.

We're in an adjustment phase right now and boundaries are being re-drawn around what constitutes creativity. My leading theory at the moment is that we'll all mostly eventually settle down to the idea that AI is just a tool. Once we're used to it and less starry eyed about it's output then individual creativity, possibly supported by AI tools, will flourish again. It's going to come down to the question of whether you prefer reading something cogitated, written, drawn or motion rendered by AI or you enjoy the perspective of a human being more. Both will be true in different scenarios I expect.

Honestly, I've had to nope out of quite a few forums and servers permanently now because all they do in there is circlejerk about the death of AI. Like this one theory that keeps popping up that image generating AI specifically is inevitably going to collapse in on itself and stop producing quality images. The reverse is so obviously true but they just don't want to see it. Otherwise smart people are just being so stubborn with this and it's, quite frankly, depressing to see.

Also, the tech nerds arguing that AI is just a fancy word and pixel regurgitating engine and that we'll never have an AGI are probably the same people that were really hoping Data would be classified as a sentient lifeform when Bruce Maddox wanted to dissassemble him in "The Measure of a Man".

How's that for whiplash?

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 32 points 3 months ago (6 children)

Models are not improving, companies are still largely (massively) unprofitable, the tech has a very high environmental impact (and demand) and not a solid business case has been found so far (despite very large investments) after 2 years.

That AI isn't going anywhere is possible, but LLM-based tools might also simply follow crypto, VR, metaverses and the other tech "revolutions" that were just hyped and that ended nowhere. I can't say it will go one way or another, but I disagree with you about "adjustment period". I think generative AI is cool and fun, but it's a toy. If companies don't make money with it, they will eventually stop investing into it.

Also

Today’s hype will have lasting effects that constrain tomorrow’s possibilities

Is absolutely true. Wasting capital (human and economic) on something means that it won't be used for something else instead. This is especially true now that it's so hard to get investments for any other business. If all the money right now goes into AI, and IF this turns out to be just hype, we just collectively lost 2, 4, 10 years of research and investments on other areas (for example, environment protection). I am really curious about what makes you think that that sentence is false and stupid.

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[–] GhiLA@sh.itjust.works 13 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It's fucking fantastic news, tbh.

Here's my take, let them dismiss it.

Let em! Remember Bitcoin at $15k after 2019?

Let em! And it's justified! If Ai isn't important right now, then why should its price be inflated to oblivion? Let it fall. Good! Lower prices for those of us that do see the value down the road.

That's how speculative investment works. In no way is this bad. Are sales bad? Sit back and enjoy the show.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 15 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Are sales bad?

Of AI products? By all available metrics, yes, sales for AI driven products are atrocious.

Even the biggest name in AI is desperately unprofitable. OpenAI has only succeeded in converting 3% of their free users to paid users. To put that on perspective, 40% of regular Spotify users are on premium plans.

And those paid plans don't even cover what it costs to run the service for those users. Currently OpenAI are intending to double their subscription costs over the next five years, and that still won't be enough to make their service profitable. And that's assuming that they don't lose subscribers over those increased costs. When their conversion rate at their current price is only 3%, there's not exactly an obvious appetite to pay more for the same thing.

And that's the headline name. The key driver of the industry. And the numbers are just as bad everywhere else you look, either terrible, or deliberately obfuscated (remember, these companies sank billions of capex into this; if sales were good they'd be talking very openly and clearly about just how good they are).

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[–] computerscientistII@lemm.ee 24 points 3 months ago (7 children)

I saved a lot of time due to ChatGPT. Need to sign up some of my pupils for a competition by uploading their data in a csv-File to some plattform? Just copy and paste their data into chsatgpt and prompt it to create the file. The boss (headmaster) wants some reasoning why I need some paid time for certain projects? Let ChatGPT do the reasoning. Need some exercises for one of my classes that doesn't really come to grips with while-loops? let ChatGPT create those exercises (some smartasses will of course have ChatGPT then solve those exercises). The list goes on...

[–] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 18 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Just copy and paste [student personal data] into [3rd parties database]

Yeah, that's a problem, especially in Europe. Im unsure about US, but it's definitely a breach of GDPR.

[–] solstice@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago (1 children)

ChatGPT is basically like a really good intern, and I use it heavily that way. I run literally every email through it and say "respond to so and so, say xyz" and then maybe a little refining, copy paste, done.

The other day, my boss sent me an excel file with a shitload of data in it that he wanted me to analyze some such way. I just copy pasted it into gpt and asked it, and it spit out the correct response. Then my boss asked me to do something else that required a bit of excel finagling that I didn't really know how to do, so i asked gpt, and it told me the formula, which worked immediately first try.

So basically it helps me accomplish tasks in seconds that previously would've taken hours. If anything, I think markets are currently undervalued, because remarkably, fucking NONE of my colleagues or friends are using it at all yet. Once there's widespread adoption, which will pretty much have to happen if anyone wants to stay competitive once it gains more traction, look out...

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[–] ssfckdt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 3 months ago

Yeah, and Wikipedia is one of the most useful sites on the net, but it didn't exactly result in the entire web becoming crowdsourced.

[–] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 12 points 3 months ago

The poem about AI that often gets posted says "What are you trying to avoid? The living [of a life]?"

And yeah, that's what it's for, dodging shit you don't want to do. I gotta produce some useless bullshit that no one's going to read or care about: AI.

I don't even mind AI art for things like LinkedIn posts, blogs like "What is warehouse management?" or "Top 10 finance trends in 2025" - SEO spam that no human will read. No one wants to write it, read it, or care about it- its just a x kb file to tell Google to look here.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Those pupils will really thank you when they grow up and there isn't enough fresh water because all the data centres are using it up far faster than it can be replenished.

https://utulsa.edu/news/data-centers-draining-resources-in-water-stressed-communities/

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[–] UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee 16 points 3 months ago (10 children)

I have no idea how people can consider this to be a hype bubble especially after the o3 release. It smashed the ARC AGI benchmark on the performance front. It ranks as the 175th best competitive coder in the world on Codeforces' leaderboard.

o3 proved that it is possible to have at least an expert AGI if not a Virtuoso AGI (according to Deep mind's definition of AGI). Sure, it's not economical yet. But it will get there very soon (just like how the earlier GPTs were a lot dumber and took a lot more energy than the newer, smaller parameter models).

Please remember - fight to seize the means of production. Do not fight the means of production themselves.

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 29 points 3 months ago

It's a bubble because OpenAI spend $2.35 for every $1.00 they make. Yes, you're mathing right, that is a net loss.

It's a bubble because all of the big players in AI development agree that future models will cost exponentially more money to train, for incremental gains. That means there is no path forward that doesn't intensely amplify the unprofitability of an already deeply unprofitable industry.

It's a bubble because newer models with better capabilities only cost more and more to run.

It's a bubble because as far as anyone knows there will never be a solution to the hallucination problem.

It's a bubble because despite investments treating it as a trillion dollar industry, no one has yet figured out a trillion dollar problem that AI can solve.

You're trying on a new top of the line VR headset and saying "Wow, this is incredible, how can anyone say this is a bubble?" Its not about how cool the tech is in isolation, it's about its potential to effect widespread change. Facebook went in hard on VR, imagining a future where everyone worked from home while wearing VR headsets. But what they got was an expensive toy that only had niche uses.

AI performs do well on certain coding tasks because a lot of the individual problems that make up a particular piece of software have already been solved. It's standard practice to design programs as individual units, each of which performs the smallest task possible, and which can then be assembled to complete more complex tasks. This fits very well into the LLM model of assembling pieces into their most likely expected configurations. But it cannot create truly novel code, except by a kind of trial and error mutation process. It cannot problem solve. It cannot identify a users needs and come up with ideal solutions to them. It cannot innovate.

This means that, at best, genAI in the software world becomes a tool for producing individual code elements, guided and shepherded by experienced programmers. It does not replace the software industry, merely augments it, and it does so at a cost that many companies simply may not feel is worth paying.

And that's its best case scenario. In every other industry AI has been a spectacular failure. But it's being invested in as if it will be a technological reckoning for every form of intellectual labour on earth. That is the absolute definition of a bubble.

[–] Omega_Jimes@lemmy.ca 17 points 3 months ago (5 children)

o3 made the high score on ARC through brute force, not by being good. To raise the score from 75% to 87% required 175 times more computing power, but exactly stunning returns.

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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 months ago

Your example is strange because, as far as I know, GPTs aren't economical either.

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[–] walter_wiggles@lemmy.nz 11 points 3 months ago

Big tech is out of ideas and needs AI to work in order to drive growth.

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