Snow–free roads seem like a beneficial thing for most modes of transport though.
this post was submitted on 02 Jun 2025
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Judging by that picture, pedestrians can get fucked though.
Judging by that picture, pedestrians can get fucked though.
A picture can be deceiving.
That picture is of work being down on a part of Lyon street south of DeVos Performance Hall and Convention center, between Monroe Avenue and the Grand River.
(Don’t let the name fool you, DeVos Hall and DeVos Center are owned by the city. They’re just named after the billionaires who paid a chunk of change for its construction and subsequent renovations.)
The reconstruction there is to make the area much better for pedestrians. There used to be a some parking along that street, which I think when the work will be finished will be purely for valet service for the hotel on the south side of the street. That part of the street has been at least partially closed to cars for a while, even though most of the work is done. And I wouldn’t be shocked if those sidewalks are already heated.
As I said elsewhere, they’ve added a really nice seating area at the end of the street (you can’t really see it in this picture because it goes down toward the Grand River). This also better connects Monroe Avenue (where the picture is taken) to the walking bridge behind DeVos Hall that goes over the Grand River to the Gerald R Ford Presidential Library and Museum. Just across the street from that is the Grand Rapids Public Museum, with yet another pedestrian/cyclist only bridge back across the river.
Just behind the camera and about a block south is Rosa Parks Circle, another pedestrian focused area with safe access to several restaurants with outdoor seating and the Grand Rapids Art Museum.
In short, this is a very walkable part of town. It isn’t perfect, but it’s far from “pedestrians can get fucked.”
Also as I stated elsewhere, heating under the street like this can prevent the accumulation of snow which would be plowed onto sidewalks or bike lanes, and the accumulation of ice which would be treated with salt that would then run into the Grand River. It’s a very good solution for the specific problem faced by this city.
Hey it might not be a total retrofit.. the sidewalks could already have it.
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You may not quite realize for how long roads are impassible to all traffic in northern states. Where I live, a couple hundred miles south of Grand Rapids, the snow and ice still make roads entirely impassible for a total of a week or so every winter; it takes the coordinated effort of hundreds of salt trucks and plows to get it cleaned out enough to drive, bus, walk, or bike on. Then that same effort has to be expended again a couple of weeks later.
Piping existing waste heat underground into a system like this, when the road is uncovered for repair anyway, would make a lot of sense for high-traffic areas so that plows can focus on other locations instead; it would also reduce the salt budget and plow fuel budget, and reduce the maintenance budget for cleanup and repair due to salt damage.
Going even a little bit further north, this would likely be even more effective. In some Michigan cities, roofed streets make economic sense; this seems even more cost-effective and less likely to require heavy repair.
Bike lanes, public transportation, roadway maintenance, and snow & ice clearing are all expensive. None of them have to turn a profit.
Yeah; trains that can be their own ploughs would be communist.
Trains would definitely be a great choice. But in a lot of places in the midwestern US, the economic realities of fixed transit infrastructure are tricky.
Not impossible. I'm definitely not saying that. But they'd require more regulatory steps than a robust bus network, for instance.
Tell that to the pre world war two united states, porphyriato era mexico, and literally siberia.
I'm so glad roads are flexible and free.
Yeah, I know. But the last two were accomplished largely by fiat. Which should be impossible in the US, though...you know.
And the pre-WW2 US had the advantage of essentially being pre-suburbs. Now sprawl means that the cost of adequate rail connections increases exponentially while the tax base increases linearly.
Again, like I said before, this is not impossible. But it will require a concerted effort to reverse a century's worth of underinvestment in urban areas, white flight, and stigmatization of multi-family living; and right now, we're doing the opposite of all of those things.
Im glad the cost of car capable roads and their maintenance, plus fuel and vehicle subdidies, stays the same no matter what. That's so lucky.
No, of course they don't stay the same. I'm not asserting that at all. In fact, that's a big problem in a lot of places with huge road networks and proportionally too-small tax bases. But they're already there, and upkeep is cheaper than building new.
Is it?
The state of Michigan expects to spend $24,093 per lane-mile to maintain their roads. By contrast, the cheapest light rail line in the world costs $150 million per mile to build. Assuming that new rail line lasts for 6,000 years and never needs a single cent of maintenance, it might just barely break even with the financial cost of maintaining an existing road.
But induced demand means the cost of more road is part of the road.
Plus im guessing that rail cost includes power delivery infra and actual engines/cars.
So add the cost of every gas station to that number. Add the cost of the cars and their maintenance, or some dubiously calculated fraction thereof.
Add the maintenance cost of driveways and garages. Of parking lots. Of parking structures.
Induced demand is a good point, but the cost of building new lane-miles of road is "only" about $5 million per mile. (In Florida; I can't find exact numbers for Michigan, but the variance is unlikely to be dramatic.)
Plus im guessing that rail cost includes power delivery infra and actual engines/cars.
Power delivery, maybe. Engines and cars, probably not (at least not meaningfully), since the numbers I'm seeing are for extensions to existing lines. But we don't need to worry about adding gas station costs or the costs of car ownership to that, because those are privately-owned (and thus privately-borne costs).
We're not talking about societal cost here. We're talking about why localities don't do this. And the answer is, because it's expensive: the upfront cost for a massive public works project that won't be finished until after the current office-holders are no longer in public service would be at or above a billion dollars.
Added bonus: private ownership of some portion of transportation costs means that the localities can offload a good chunk of the cost to the people in a way that makes them feel like they have "freedum!"
See im taking about reasons should(n't)
If we're talking about why they dont, then fed hwy subsidy should also factor, and roads are functionally free to local budgets.
Yeah, I've definitely been coming at this from a perspective of why they don't. I absolutely think they should, even with all of the reasons that I've stated; though I acknowledge that it'd take a while and a lot of money to make the shift.
Yep, the federal highway subsidy is definitely a big factor here, too (though I don't think that's as big a deal as it might seem; numbers that are too big just become part of the marketing in the campaign to replace you. "outhouseperilous voted to spend $450 million on transportation last year!" becomes the soundbite, and your protestations that subsidies covered the entire cost won't get any traction).
To say nothing of how it's "woke" to not worship at the feet of the automotive industry.
not worshipping and going to the other r/fuckcars woukd be woke, god theyre sexy
Oh, thats true. Nevermind. I dont want to be burned as a heretic.
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So many people get heated driveways, use it for a year, get the cost for running it and never use it again...
It seems like it would only be close to “reasonable” to run in a place where snow is so minimal that you don’t even need to bother dealing with it.
But if you live somewhere like where I live, where a bad storm is 10-14” of snow, that’s gotta take what, days of running the system?
Not really. You're thinking of using it to clear 10-14" of snow that's already built up. But with the street being kept just above freezing during the snowstorm, the snow hitting the street will melt immediately, never sticking to begin with.
And since you only need 5° or so above freezing, it takes less energy than you might think to keep it there.
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We have a narrow walkway of our pretty steep driveway heated. It came in clutch several times when we had black ice, but is also useful in snow.
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written by someone who has never been to michigan.
fyi, Michigan is a peninsula surrounded by the great lakes… it has it’s own special snow….
(see also, lake effect snow).
Yeah, but it's not that special. Heated surfaces like this are ungodly expensive, both to construct and run.
Source: I priced doing this for my driveway.
west michigan IS that special. you either clear the roads, or you don’t use them.
and there are a lot of roads and a limited amount of plows… downtown in a larger city like GR, it makes perfect sense.
for the record, Lake Michigan generates it’s own clouds and snow, and the wind is constantly blowing west to east… it snows a lot more than you think… and very suddenly
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I mean this has a specific use case
You don't have to be negative about everything just because you don't understand it
It's not like you live in doomworld, doomsilvanya, 10230
That's what I was thinking. Downtown areas are difficult for snow removal and if this just sends it all down the sewers, this could be a huge savings.
Does this actually work? It seems a massive waste of money, you just need a heavy truck to pass on the road to have a pipe leak and break the whole system
Not to mention the energy cost to keep it over 0° C for all the winter
You wouldn't believe the secondary costs caused by thawing salt. And then there's the primary cost of operating vehicle park to spread a lot of salt each winter.
Although general streets would not be my first choice (you should start with bridges where corrosion is even more of an issue) every example of heated street I saw was just a matter of "yeah, simple math says this makes sense".
PS: And that's obviously not car-specific even. Every newly build bike lane should incorporate this idea. Modern bike and pedestrian bridges doubly so.
PPS: For reference: new bicycle-bridge in Germany... 16 million € to build, of which the added heating is a very small fraction (300k).
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I regularly walk through a pedestrian area that has such heating here in Helsinki. Most of the time it works, but when it gets cold enough and there's a lot of new snow, the snow just turns into a wet slush that people walk through until it freezes into a horrible icy mess dotted with deep footprints. It's quite a contrast to the nice and relatively even packed snow around the place at such times. Drainage is important, as is keeping the power level adequately high. Half measures will fail if the conditions get bad.
If they also plow the bulk of the snow off when it's fresh, then it could work nicely.
it can save money over labor and increased road maintenance of snow plows, it also makes it significantly less of a trip hazard because ice patches get removed faster.
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Is it for snow?
Grand Rapids isn’t the most bike-friendly city, but it’s also very far from the worst. I bike through it somewhat regularly, and have only come close to dying once (while biking over the speed limit on Lake Drive in East GR, but not fast enough for one asshole who decided to pass me illegally and almost got hit).
We could certainly use more bike lanes, but we have some good trails in Kent County.
This method of snow prevention is awesome when the weather is right. You keep ice and snow from accumulating in the first place, so it doesn’t need to be plowed and end up blocking the very sidewalks and bikelanes we want. And it also means you don’t need nearly as much salt.
It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s not a bad one either.
Edit: Also this is near an area that is being redone to be largely pedestrian-focused. Cars have been cut off from a good chunk of that road I think, the parking garage exit that goes onto that street has been closed for over a year now. Maybe it will reopen, but regardless, they’ve added a lovely little sitting area down that street. And just down that street where this is shot there’s a lovely walking bridge over the Grand River to the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library/Museum, which is just across the street from the Grand Rapids Public Museum, which has yet another walking bridge (the Blue Bridge) over the Grand River back to this side.
In other words, this is a very walkable part of the city. Again, not perfect, but better than lots of places.
How long until those water lines are rendered useless by street cracks?
Probably longer than we'd expect, because the street will crack less if it's kept at a consistent temp?
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I went to an onsen (hot spring) town in Japan. They have hot spring water, so on a lot of the streets business owners just turn the hose on and point it downhill. Worked pretty well for keeping the streets clear of snow, but requires a lot of existing geographical conditions.
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There are a couple of bikeways that are heated and it actually saves money, because the way lasts longer. But I believe that's mostly used on bridges, because the salt would otherwise damage the bridge. I don't know if this works out for normal roads, too
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