this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2025
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I see a lot of misinformation about bluesky here, so I want to address a lot of the talking points against atproto/bluesky.

This is partially inspired by accounts like mastodon migration and feditips being really annoying about bluesky.

How Bluesky Works

I see a lot of people misunderstanding how it works.
The network has three main parts:

  1. A PDS -- This stands for Personal Data Server. These store information in records, like who you are following, your posts, who you are blocking and your images.
  2. A relay -- These crawl PDSes and keep a copy of all the records on them. They give a "Firehose" of all the data on the network (that they crawled).
  3. An AppView -- These index and work through the data from the firehose. All interactions are handled through these, meaning if someone follows me on bluesky, that app.bsky.graph.follow record will be crawled by the relay, and recieved by the AppView. https://bsky.app/ is an Appview. Appviews don't always have to use the relays, https://whtwnd.com/ connects to PDSes directly.

This is different to ActivityPub, where if I follow someone, my server sends that information directly to the other person's server.

Common misconceptions

An atproto relay is too expensive to run.

https://atproto.africa/ is a second full-network relay run by the blacksky team. We already have a second relay, and they're not even that expensive to run anymore, a lot of people run non-archival (meaning it doesn't backfill every post) relays for less than $40 a month.

There is no instances available except for bsky.social

bsky.social isn't actually an instance, its just the domain name assigned to users by default. This is explained here: https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f

Wafrn has (opt-in) bluesky support, they act as a PDS and AppView, so if bluesky disappears tomorrow they can switch to the atproto.africa relay. (There is DID:PLC which is a problem, but I'll get to that later.)

You can't defederate bsky.social, this proves atproto is centralised!

https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f also explains this, bsky.social is just the name assigned to users, each PDS has names like https://brittlegill.us-west.host.bsky.network/ (where my account is).

While you could ignore records from a specific PDS on the App layer, its pretty pointless, since atproto is portable/content addressed, meaning a user could seamlessly move to another PDS. (AP does support moving, but its pretty seamful.)

(While I was writing this someone posted a pretty good blogpost about this: https://blog.cyrneko.eu/there-is-no-bsky-social-instance)

Bluesky can censor people in turkey, this proves they're centralised!

Those posts weren't removed, people on third party bluesky apps in turkey could still see them.
People in Turkey are automatically subscribed to a Moderation Service which hides those posts, as the government requires it.
If a person unsubscribes, or uses a third party app/server the posts are still there.

Bluesky isn't decentralised as someone was banned for pointing out the head of T&S liked jailbait porn.

That person came back on a different PDS. They literally are still on bluesky because they joined a different server.

Bluesky went down due to a DDoS, this proves they are centralised!

The DDoS only crashed the Bluesky PDSes. People self hosting were fine.


Wafrn

Wafrn is a federated tumblr alternative. It started off as a tumblr clone, the dev added AP support, and eventually, Atproto support.
Its a great example of how bluesky can be built on.
If bluesky disappeared tomorrow, Wafrn could switch relays to atproto.africa, and still interact with people on other PDSes.


AppViewLite

appviewlite is a cool project I forgot to mention in the original post. It lets you self host an extremely lightweight Appview.
You can crawl PDSes yourself, eliminating the need for a relay.
https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite

The main reason I made this post is because so many people are blindly anti-atproto, without fully understanding how it works and how it can be improved.

There is obviously problems with it, but it does a lot right. (There's a lot ActivityPub should do, like content addressing, DIDs and composable moderation).

I also think we could do with a better bridge. bridgy isn't really cutting it right now.


Note on did:plc, its the only centralised part of the network as of now, its essentially the underlying ID every account has. It is possible to use a did:web id instead, which is tied to a website name.


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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

maybe open technically. but my impression of BlueSky is that it is full of neoliberal status quo apologists. would be happy to be wrong.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

Yes, it is, but so is mastodon, if I curate my feed, I can exclude them from it.
this is about the technical aspects of bluesky/atproto.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

There are only 15,000 out of 36 Million users that are on servers not owned by Bluesky.

99.96% of users being on one instance isn't Decentralised even if the technology supports it in theory. If 99.96% of users were on lemmy.world, I wouldn't call lemmy decentralised even if the technology allows it in theory.

🧮 Decentralization Scoring System (v1.3)

📋 Breakdown (Estimates)

Platform    Score Visualization                           
📧 Email          95 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🐹 Lemmy          79 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🐘 Mastodon        74 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩                 
🟣 PeerTube        94 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🖼 Pixelfed        42 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧
🔵 Bluesky        14 🟥🟥🟥                                 
🟥 Reddit           3 🟥 

Source

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Define decentralised.
As per RFC 9518: Centralization, Decentralization, and Internet Standards,

[...] "centralization" is the state of affairs where a single entity or a small group of them can observe, capture, control, or extract rent from the operation or use of an Internet function exclusively.

[Decentralization is when] "complete reliance upon a single point is not always required" (citing Baran, 1964)

[...] federation, i.e., designing a function in a way that uses independent instances that maintain connectivity and interoperability to provide a single cohesive service.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Top Provider User Share: bsky.social ≈ 99% → Score: 0/30 Top Provider Content Share: Nearly all content on bsky.social → Score: 0/30 Self-Hosting: Server: PDS hosting possible but very niche and poorly documented → Score: 4/20 Self-Hosting: Client: Mostly official client; some 3rd party → Score: 10/20

Total: 14/100

Interesting score

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

The scoring system isn't perfect, and is subjective, but it's a good starting point to try and measure if something is decentralised.

I forsee a lot of big companies pretending to be Open-Source and decentralised because it's good for profits. Just like they pretend to care about Gay rights etc. When it suites them

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 days ago

I like the wiki definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization Decentralization or decentralisation is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within it.

Based on this and other definitions I've seen, Bluesky is NOT decentralised.

I struggle to see how a platform of which 99.96% of it's users are controlled by one entity is Decentralised.

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 3 days ago (10 children)

PDSes and relays exist at the whim of Bluesky's corporate entity. Having all of the endpoints on the network controlled by a single agent is what makes Bluesky centralized. If Bluesky decided so, your server can be removed from their network and is functionally useless at that point. They decide who is and is not allowed to be a part of Bluesky.

For contrast, no such governing body exists with ActivityPub networks. Nobody can decide whether or not an instance should be removed from the network, they can only choose whether or not to federate with that instance. If you wanted to truly silence a Lemmy instance, for example, it would take the cooperation of all the major Lemmy admins to defederate, and is an entirely democratic process as a result.

EDIT: To clarify, ATProto is not what is centralized, "Bluesky" the platform utilizing ATProto, is what's centralized.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 3 days ago (15 children)

Christine Lemmer-Webber made an excellent blog post ~6 months ago titled How Decentralized is Bluesky really?

Give that a read.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago

I was wrong in my read on things; the new relays are pulling the entire network. Definitely a different experiment at that point.

Mea culpa on misrepresenting.

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

People in Turkey are automatically subscribed to a Moderation Service

Sucking the dick of any government is censorship. That's my opinion and it's not the American version of free speech but I dont care because I'm not American.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 days ago

It is, but it's also necessary sometimes. If governments didn't have any power and could just be ignored or openly defied without consequences, we wouldn't have to care about what they want to censor. But they do have power, despite all our wishing that they didn't, and we can't organize a resistance to them without careful maneuvering and sometimes at least making an appearance of playing by their rules. Government censorship you can unsubscribe from is objectively better than censorship you can't. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Its censorship no matter what, but it doesn't prove bluesky is centralised.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (8 children)

Interesting, thanks

I just had a quick look at a random Bsky account:

To see external users you need to be logged in. You can view their profile on their actual instance.

Is the login wall on purpose?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 days ago (5 children)

I hope I am not adding to the problem here as well. It seems that obviously Bluesky is neither fully centralized nor fully decentralized. Is there a statement about just how much of either it is?

Although that might be complicated - like someone could say that Lemmy is fairly centralized, bc if you block Lemmy.World then you lose half the users and perhaps half the communities (and PieFed even more so, with PieFed.social representing an even higher fraction of users and communities on it).

So there is a distinction between Bluesky the service as it currently is implemented and Bluesky the protocol, the former of which is fairly centralized but the latter is more expandable?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Decentralisation is not black and white, and depends on your defintion of the word.
At this point, the problem is that everyone is on bluesky's servers. There is little technical problems.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

That seems a very good way to phrase it.

The next issue then becomes cost. Which affects Lemmy as well: first there is the requisite effort to set up and self-host even a tiny instance (especially as it relates to potential spam and CSAM attacks), and second the network traffic costs. The latter may be tiny for a single user who only subscribes to a handful of communities, but someone trying to browse All and wanting everything to be available for their perusal (even if deleted soon-ish for storage reasons) will bear a much higher burden. Which depending on local costs may be trivially easy... or prohibitively expensive, but in either case the more data that someone wants to pull in the higher the cost.

And I imagine that Bluesky is either similar, or significantly worse.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Bluesky would work better for that, since everything would be on the AppView. Hosting multiple appviews would be intensive on the relays, but different ones could keep content for different amounts of time.

I think AP works better when you don't need or want all the information to be available at once.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

One issue for me, and this is also true of Mastodon and by extension Mbin, is that I greatly prefer the voting and focus on a topic area rather than person. X / Twitter / Mastodon / Bluesky is where celebrities go to increase their profits, fame, and relevance, while Reddit / Lemmy / PieFed (/ + nodeBB + flarum + others) are where we discuss matters of import. I'm not criticizing your post here - this is definitely the correct community to discuss such matters:-) - just interjecting my personal preferences into the conversation, to disclose my own biases.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I like both formats, but I do prefer forum-style conversation.

https://frontpage.fyi/ is a link-aggregator built on atproto.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Last post 4 days ago, that makes Lemmy look like a beehive

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 hours ago

I blame this on an UX blunder.

Bluesky users are taught not to enter their Bluesky passwords to enter different apps, but rather create a different "app password" for each one. Then Frontpage went OAuth which directs users to Bluesky login page. Bluesky brings us a different login page for OAuth use :/ and obviously does not remember that we are already logged in in the same browser.

This of course means that we have to enter a Bluesky password to a slightly different-looking website - a somewhat fishy way to authenticate a user...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, it doesn't even have communities.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

https://azsky.app/ tries to use Bluesky's feeds to simulate something like communities. I think it focuses too much on piggybacking off bsky content to be useful though, like forums and microblogs are different paradigms and a different UI isn't going to change that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

Very nice 👌 I hope we will see more applications for these protocols as time passes.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

then you lose half the users and perhaps half the communities

As a thought, do you really lose them?

For example the "Television" community previously existed on the lemm.ee instance. The lemm.ee instance is scheduled for shutdown. The "Television" community is now hosted on the piefed.social instance.

It has the same users and has the same topics of discussion. Were the users really lost? Did the community really go away?

Let's pretend Reddit decided it would no longer allow discussion on "Television". What if BlueSky no longer allowed discussion on "Television". You'd have to leave those platforms completely. You really would lose those communities. Those users (at least in part) really would be gone.

Is Lemmy.World a big instance? Sure. Would the users and communities really be lost if it went away? I don't think so.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

If Lemmy.World went away, then correct you would not "lose" the users as, well you said it, they would simply move to another instance.

But if Lemmy.World remained and you blocked it (if you had a method to do that - it's not easy at all using base Lemmy but it is doable with some older apps or like Ublock Origin filter rules and such), then in that context you would indeed "lose" all of that content. Or like if you got banned from that instance then that's another way that you could "lose" access to engage with communities located on it.

The more centralized something is, like Reddit, the more damaging it is to lose access to it, while the more decentralized, as you pointed out, the less overall effect that perturbations have upon the network.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

~99.96% of all Bluesky users and content is on Bluesky servers.

Bluesky is decentralised in theory, but in reality it is not. Until one entity doesn't own over 90% of the users and content, I really can't see how it can be seen as decentralised.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

@Ek-Hou-Van-Braai
@OpenStars

It's not a matter of how many users, but whether those users have the option to switch servers. By the former standard, mastodon would be considered centralized simply because of mastodon.social.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago (2 children)

In theory Bluesky users have the option to switch, but in practice they don't 36 Million users can't just switch to other servers only catering for ~15,000 users.

mastodon.social has ~30% of the active users, which is a lot, but if it went down Mastodon would continue working for most users.

You can't compare the 99.96% market share Bluesky has with that.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 18 hours ago

Also: hosting PDSes is piss easy, if there was demand for people to move to other servers, more PDSes would pop up.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Looking at your other comment on this thread, thank you - that kind of breakdown was precisely what I was hoping to see!:-)

So Bluesky is more decentralized than Reddit (or Facebook), but barely, and far less so than any Fediverse platform currently.

I think what OP was trying to convey was less the current state of affairs and more the underlying protocol itself, which they re-released now under a separate post.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 days ago (16 children)

PDS migration works way better on atproto, and objects are portable, unlike on AP.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

if you block Lemmy.World then you lose half the users

35% (16k out of 46k MAU): https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list

[–] [email protected] 11 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Or even 33% as we should count PieFed and Mbin too (this makes 48k MAU overall). All 3 "apps" make one network.

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