There are two reasons they want people back in the office: control and real estate. Managers maintain power by controlling and manipulating people. That's harder to do if you're not present. Corporations have huge investments in real estate and don't want to see these drop in value. None of these reasons convey any benefit to the employee.
this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023
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Things you never hear people say 'I'm looking forward to a long commute and spending all day in an office'.
Why is this even a discussion point?Working from home has been such a game changer. It's better for family life, it's better for the environment, it's efficient. Much of the anxiety around homeworking is the suspicion that people work less. The fact is, if your job sucks you are not doing it wherever it happens to be.
What you will hear people say is that they're happy to get out of the house, and see people in real life instead of through a screen.
I was negotiating the number of days down to one, coming from 3 in the proposal, for my entire team until 1 guy said he didn't mind coming in more often. During the negotiations. With the boss. They clocked it at 2 days. They kept circling back to the guy saying there clearly are people who want to come in more often. I coulda slapped him then and there. WFH is optional. He could have come in any day he wanted, 5 days or whatever, he just didn't want to sit there alone.
Oh, if he were on my team, "alone" would be the least of his worries.
Exactly. We want to decide when it is appropriate to attend the office. I personally dislike video con meetings, there is something about being in the company of people that improves communication and promotes a sense of well-being. On the other hand, the price of meeting people in person is feeling completely exhausted from waking at 5am and coming home at 8pm. That's sustainable and actually desirable one day a week but there's no way I could do this every day without making myself miserable. I count my blessings that I'm in a position to make this choice.
My commute to work is a 8 minute walk. I used to drive 30 minutes one way and was so exhausted after driving I would fall asleep after getting home.
Removing the commute time and mental demand from driving and replacing it with a walk home where I can unpack my thoughts has massively improved my personal life. I'm really lucky, the pay is bad for my position but the alternative is a 10k pay increase with 60-90 minutes driving a day (plus CA gas).
I manage people that make the same or slightly more than me, but they drive 30-60 min one way, so in the end I'm benefiting more.
Long drives can be extremely stressful, whether we consciously acknowledge it or not. My last job was extremely stressful but one thing that wasn't adding to that was the ten minute bike ride each way. I never had to worry about traffic and being late because it was always ten minutes. Commuting is often under-rated as a quality of life factor. I think the most stress inducing bicycle commute by far was the day I ran over a squirrel.
Be extremely anxious. These companies are looking for those that bend the knee. It doesn't matter if you've been with them one year or fourty. If they find a reason to make you the example they will certainly do it especially if you're in the tech sector.
I applaud you standing your ground but my advice is to actually find a job or two that suites your situation and apply to it. Having options and offers is better.
Fuck ya, preach it. I'm in the same boat but not quite yet being forced to go back. But if I go back... I'll walk lol. The time is worth so much to me.
My last job tried to do this. They didn't even have enough desks for everyone. My entire team said "no thanks" and several people quit and they backtracked real fast. Now their stock is worth $2 when it used to be $40 a year ago lol
Just look for other jobs if you are standing your ground. Sometimes it takes a few losing a few people for them to realize they fucked up
Lol, served them well. This kind of story should be published more, to warn other companies from doing the same mistake.
Just tell them "so you're telling me I should be looking for another job then?" 😂
You should definitely stop doing "more", also.
That was a figure of speech haha.
I am old and experienced enough to work exactly the hours I am paid. I give my 100% on those hours, I am all in, and I always push back when they try to sneak a meet after my EOD, try to get some extra hours from me and so on.
Once it is clearly proven you can work remotely, a commute to the office should be viewed as a site visit with the travel time being on the clock and travel costs reimbursed. If they do that, then yeah sure I'll listen to podcasts for an hour a day, anything else should be looked at as the pay cut it actually is. ((Travel time x hourly wage)+travel costs).
Or compensate it yourself. I have to come in the office twice a week, but I have to meet actual customers, so that's fair. However, friday afternoon drinks start at 3 (until 8 or 9 usually), so that hansomly compensates for my 1 hour to and 1 hour back for that day. The other day's commute I'll compensate by starting late when I work from home. My employer doesn't care about my hours as long as the work gets done.
This, for me, it’s essentially as good as it gets in the current landscape.
Yeah I thought about this, we (or I) never considered all the time wasted in commute.
In that case I should leave at 9 am, and return around 4:20 since I make 40 mins commute.
Either that or get paid the extra time, which honestly I don't think it's going to happen.
This might not be an answer but my worked also requested us come in 2 days a week. So I ride my bike in around 11am and back home about 1pm. WFH the rest of the hours. I’m all about malicious compliance.
Malicious compliance 😂
Heh heh.
My boss insisted that I come in for our 1:1s. 20 minutes later, I'm joining the standup remotely from home. He was like whoa man. I politely explained that I'm working where I can be most productive.
We need to start a remote workers union.
The upper management at my work is pushing for 3 days a week, but as of now it's completely optional. They keep acting like hybrid work is the best of both worlds, but I honestly feel like hybrid work is the worst of both worlds. Moving all of my equipment is so disruptive to my workflow. And now I get all of the drawbacks of needing to commute with the added drawback of needed to move all of my equipment every day that I go in. My laptop will die if it isn't plugged in for 2 hours, even when asleep, so if I just leave it in my backpack between work days that I go into the office, it will die and I will need to re-open all my applications, which is very time consuming with how slow my laptop is.
My manager decided that our team will have one weekly optional in-office day, so for those of us who want to come in, we can on the same day others want to. We all have lunch together on those days, and we usually leave early - around 3:30 PM. It has actually been really nice to see people's faces. It's just understood that we hardly get any actual work done those days, and it's more for """team building"""
Moving equipment is one of my main issues, only second to commuting.
We don't have fixed desks, we have to sign up in an app and choose an available space.
So I can't have my desk the way I want, which is very specific as I have my keyboard, mouse, second keyboard, and also 2 external monitors, in the office there is only 1.
And yeah, if I have to, I would accept like going once every 2 weeks, on a friday, with the assumption that it is going to be a slow day for me and my client should be notified of this.
What is that called again, hotdesk? Abso fucking lute nightmare. It’s like taking an open office and making it even shittier. It’s a net NEGATIVE on CuLtUrE, since it makes everyone feel like they don’t have their own place in the office to be comfy with coworkers.
They are only hurting themselves. Remote workers are more productive and they are going to lose you to a remote company. The only people wanting to go back are those who waste time at the water cooler and had no life of their own.
Its so awesome that people like you stand their ground. It makes a difference for all of us.
Yeah! We love to see this positive solidarity!
I went freelance after covid. The management's attitude towards WFH really underlined for me how little they cared for their employees. It's not the kind of work people need to be in the office for, yet they kept pushing, and surprise surprise, wave after wave of covid went through the people that thought being in the office was a good idea. People are still suffering the effects years on. Couldn't be happier now I'm working for myself.
You did the right thing my dude. If it makes you feel any better, today I left from work 30 minutes earlier to get my children from day care, a thing I have agreed with my manager to do during this month because I have no one else to do it and he agreed since I have a lot of overtime owed to me. The thing is that today the GM and the SM of the organization were here and I was in the meeting room with them. When the time came I just said, "well If you excuse me, I have to go get the kids", shaked hands with the GM and left. I remember everyone in the room looking at me the way you would imagine. Anyway. We have good unions in my country and it was all legal. I'm giving 100% everyday, not an inch higher. Apparently, I might not be promotion melaterial, but my kids are on top of everything else and worth every second I can spare for them.
Good. The best action is to unionize, the next best action is to independently stand your ground. WFH is superior for workers when possible. We deserve it
Something to consider would be to unionize your workplace, if everyone says this is dumb I'm not doing it and they have the extra legal protections of being in a union then these shit ass Bosses can't do anything about it.
I've often tried to foster the idea with others of starting a programmer's union. What do folks think of that?
Like, just imagine of even 1% of FAANG workers unionized.
Programmers unions are rare but pretty great. They're rare because even individual programmers have massive bargaining power.
They're pretty great beacuse as much fun as it is to go take even more money somewhere else - it's even nicer to just stay at a good job with reasonable benefits.
Everyone's comments here made me realize just how bad it is still with employers trying to get warm bodies in the office. My company used to be "Everyone who works from home wastes time and is less productive" They quickly realized when their hands were forced and the pandemic hit, there were much less sick days, and productivity has never been higher!
You’ve made your case and stood your ground, and until it’s an official policy and nothing more than “guidance” you’ll probably be ok, honestly.
A few months back I was offered a promotion and a fancy new job title, with the caveat that I would need to move to another country. I countered with more or less the same argument as you, “I’ve been doing this from home for years and everyone I work with is remote anyways; I’m not moving” and was met with a “hmm…fair enough”.
Good for you! Children are only children once, jobs will always be jobs. I definitely am not going back to the office & will freelance if I have to. (software)
EDIT: Context. I'm not sure how the drag-back is unfolding in the US but where I work in the UK, the boss is not fighting us over it, thankfully. Almost all our clients are not in Europe & some team members were commuting an hour or more, some were leaving early to pick up kids - so a flex time policy was in place, even before the pandemic.
Since the pandemic, junior/mid members come in once a week & seniors once a fortnight. If I can fix it remotely, then I do, if not then I go in - never by threat & can leave when I'm done. As a plus, performance & work quality increased, people have claimed back 1-2 hours a day. Comms with US/ AUS teams is easier than before. So while I'm lucky, if they want it back to like before then I will freelance until I find the balance I need.
Time for a new job. There are plenty of remote jobs out there. You have good experience under your belt, so don't let them scare you into going into the office. Give them the bird and leave. Companies don't care about you, no matter how long you've been with them, and you shouldn't care either. And no, your team isn't your family, they're just people you work with. Don't be attached.
Yes, I am old enough to know that you are selling your expertise and time.
The company obviously profits a lot more that what you receive.
Also I always cringe with this "family" stuff on any company, that is just a way to manipulate the employees into creating a relationship with the company.
"We're family!...... If you count those toxic families that are governed by raging narcissists. You wanted vindictive feuds, useless arbitrary rules, power-tripping, victim blaming, a cult of personality over management, and extreme punitive actions, right? Right?!"
My last place had a strong cult vibe to it. That was bad enough. But the part that really tripped me out were the overly-bubbly 'glee squad' employees who spent half their time fishing over how life changing our employer was, and the other half literally crying over... how life changing our employer was. It was incredibly cringe. I felt embarrassed for them.
I once worked at one of those "family" places.
One day the boss told me he didn't think I was particularly dedicated to that place.
I said "No shit. That's why you have to pay me to show up every day."
That put an end to that line of reasoning.
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You have IT manager experience, my dude. You'll definitely find some remote work either back on the dev side or still in management. My company tried to pull this too but joke's on them because I moved 200 miles away from the office during Covid. The Economist recently published an article which cites a study that says working from home is not as productive as previously thought, because of the aggregate value that unplanned micro-interactions in the office can provide. Not sure I agree...
Yeah, a lot of the studies about remote work being less productive I find faulty. In my work/team we saw huge productivity gains. Now company-wide are asking for return to office and I'm telling my team not to comply and refer complaints to me (manager). We do go in once a week (in-person interactions have a benefit, but there's diminishing returns to how often these in person benefits occur). Often this will be lined up with client meeting, in-person performance reviews, team lunch, etc.
The international remote teams are already complaining. They can't have the usual meetings because my team is commuting to the office on X day of week. Yeah, early morning meeting with India, EU, etc are a staple now (and part of our productivity boost, it's better to meet when it's not super late for them). When commute to office returned I (and others) booked commute as a time block so the international teams didn't try to get us on calls in the car. If the company wants that time block back for meetings the involved members don't come in.
This will eventually come to a head, but I'm standing with my team members and improved metrics over blanket C-level demands. The business case is already written up for the first time they complain.
Managing a team of developers, "unplanned micro-interactions" are just about the last thing I want them to have more of.
Sounds like my employer. Vague messaging from the CEO a few months back about going into the office, but that it was up to managers to determine what was best for their teams.
Now, the CEO is chiding people for not being in the office at least twice a week. Luckily I’m in a market with a strong presence for my area, but those hotspots are being told to come in at least twice a week.
As a manager, I did have this "up to managers what is best for your teams" conversation with my remote team.
"Can y'all still remotely do the job you've done for several years remotely?"
"Uh. Yeah. Are you going to ask us to come back to the office?"
"Hiring new developers after several of you give notice would be a huge waste of my professional time, so no."
"I guess we told you."
"I'm glad we sorted that out."
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