This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
It’s not EV’s I’m skeptical of hey.
It’s the cars they are making. The evs are all quite expensive and then all new cars seem to be taking the opportunity to tack on all these extra subscriptions and such.
I’m never buying a car where heated seats are bound to my car app account on a subscription like seriously…
Most of the car subscription items don't bother me. Many are like cosmetic skins in game. The car still works well without them. Lets look at Tesla just because they are popular:
None of that stuff is required and the usability and features of the car are still really good.
Further, for many of those factory hardware locked features there are one-time aftermarket solutions to enable them from third parties, though I have never had the need or desire for those things.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it.
Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
On top of that many manufacturers are locking the features to the one person.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I’m sorry I’m not supporting that bullshit or the manufacturers who are doing this one bit even if I don’t pay for a feature.
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
I want to be in control of the things I own and pay for, that’s the whole point of owning something. Car manufacturers these days seem to be under the delusion that they still own our vehicles and we are just the money sacks they are renting them to.
This has been going on for a while, but seem much much worse on the electric cars.
Also frankly the infrastructure isn’t there in many places around the world.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
And while this may be in place in some places in the world it’s not in most. Add this to the fact that charging points are often out of order well you start to see the issue.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it. Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
I know this isn't an obvious point, but if you got the car how you wanted it, it would actually cost more for things you may not care about. The complaint then would be "why is the car so expensive? Why don't they sell a more basic version?"
When a manufacture has to actually build different cars with different features at time of manufacture it drives up the costs for ALL models. They can't easy substitution when market conditions change and could be stuck with only the premium versions which cost more. A great example of this is the Ford Lightning. There were as many as 12 different model/trim levels. One of the primary complaints of prospective buyers is only the premium priced versions were on dealership lots. This is what you get.
The car is cheaper with the addons disabled. If forced to sell with all addons enabled, the car would be much more expensive for things may people don't care about.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I'm not understanding your argument here. If we're talking Tesla, and you bought the $2k Acceleration Boost, if you sold the car to someone, that $2k feature would still be there. Who is removing paid enabled addons? Can you cite an example?
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
Besides NTSB recall firmware updates, a you can make a Tesla not force a firmware update. It may nag though.
This isn't something new though, its just the delivery. About 18 years ago, there was a Honda firmware that I DID NOT WANT INSTALLED. I had to take the Honda 2003 car to a Honda dealer for warranty work, and SPECIFICALLY TOLD THEM NOT TO INSTALL THAT FIRMWARE. They did anyway. So this is nothing new to EVs or even modern cars.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
Your friend may not have told you the whole story.
A Tesla firmware will prompt you when it wants to install. It will tell you "this takes about 25 minutes to complete and the car will be unusable during that time". You can choose to install it immediately by pressing the button when prompted, or set a time for it to wake the car and install it. Even if you accidentally say "install now" it gives you a 2 minute countdown on screen to cancel it. So your buddy either scheduled it to install 30 min before he was supposed to go to work, or he hit the button to install it, waited for the entire 2 minute cancellation period to expire and did nothing.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
You're projecting for a problem that likely won't happen in the scale you're describing. Battery tech is evolving fast. Modern batteries can charge in a fraction of time of those even sold 3 years ago. This charging speed of battery as well as faster chargers look to be solving this.
Further, 80% of EV drivers charge at home. source Nearly 0% of petrol drivers refuel at home, so comparing the two isn't equivalent.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don't want or need. We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that's already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we'd have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
That's the definition of rent seeking behavior. They haven't added any actual value for that second payment. They merely blocked you from using part of what you already bought until you paid them an arbitrary amount.
You missed the biggest flaw in all those arguments: "yet".
None of that stuff is required... yet. It will. As soon as the subscription model catches on, it will be required.
Just look at: everywhere. How far did video streaming go from cable? Well, it's not there... yet. But it's going there.
Don't think for a second this time will be different.
Many EV are just wasting too much energy for useless stuff. I love the dacia spring, it so reduced, that it only wights about 1000kg and still has about 200km (33kw motor and 29kw/h battery(my version))
"Gas is a little more convenient, so lets destroy our sole, shared, communal ecosystem we all rely on from one breath to the next so I don't have to wait for my car to charge."
Oh humans, don't ever change. For Earth's long-term sake, we need to make sure we commit to our species' mass suicide for short term profit and convenience. No half measures.
Transportation is a tiny fraction of carbon emissions. And EVs are a small improvement within that. Regulations and investment into things that matter are the only way out of this problem.
Wrong. We want affordable EVs, ideally not not sold by an openly fascist billionaire eternally-divorced childmanboy.
The only thing worse for adoption than only selling high priced EVs, is attempting to sell high priced EVs when interest rates are high.
Plus, no one ever talks about the switchover to NACS plugs in the US. Except for Tesla, most companies have announced they will switch plugs on a year or two. I hear “in a year or two these old ones will be difficult to charge and lose all its resale value”, so why would I buy?
I plan on waiting for NACS myself, but they do have adapters coming to use Tesla chargers on current non-NACS EVs. Some will provide them for free to recent owners.
How about you make one that doesn’t cost 30k more than a normal car… gees.
You make an excellent point!
I expect electric will soon be much cheaper than gas cars. Battery prices are still falling, despite the demand outpacing supply. Lithium refineries and mines are in the works and should be online in 5 years.
More importantly, electric cars are much simpler than gas cars. Anyone saying otherwise has no appreciation for the genius behind modern motors, transmissions, traction control and exhaust systems. There are an order of magnitude the number of moving parts in a combustion engine than an electric motor.
The price is higher because of the still-young supply chain for batteries and the infantile production lines for EVs.
Toyota say they can make 90 hybrids using the same raw materials as one BEV or six PHEVs, leading to a 37-fold reduction in lifetime carbon emissions .
There's the rub. 'The market' is demanding EVs with massive range-per-charge, leading to huuuge batteries (of which only 10% capacity is used, most of the time) and high prices. It's all a bit crazy.
I'm very skeptical of anything Toyota says about EVs.
Toyota Rav4 PHEV 18.1kWh Toyota Rav4 Hybrid ~1.6kWh Model Y LR 81kWh
81 / 18.1 = 4.48 PHEV 81 / 1.6 = 50.6 Hybrids
90 hybrids using the same raw materials as one BEV or six PHEVs
** for one material, compared to one battery chemistry, for hypothetical vehicles
Did you catch the news a week or so ago about mining and ore processors shutting down because they got ahead of EV demand
Edit: fix auto-correct
Yes, I'm sure Toyota is massaging that statistic heavily. They are all about hybrids.
The market wants more Chevy Bolts. They didn't have a 200 mile range. The market wants them so badly that GM unkilled the production line.
Of course they're on the same EV platform as all of the other GM BEVs that's a lemon lottery.
Volvo is going to beat the pants off this market with their 36k EV. Assuming of course our government doesn't swoop in to protect GM and Ford.
This is really sad. Their ambition should be to be leading innovators and build the best possible EVs and not just give up.
They never wanted to innovate. They have entire warehouses full of IC engines and related parts. It's far cheaper to just slap those together.
Meanwhile BYD is absolutely exploding in popularity. The problem isn’t “EV pessimism” it’s that some governments are fighting it so hard that it’s difficult out for citizens (USA) to make it work. Didn’t Biden promise a network of EV chargers across the nation?
And instead he made it illegal to import affordable Chinese cars. I’m sick of seeing articles phrased like this
Did Biden forget which about the magic wands, which you obviously know all about, that cause charge stations to spontaneously appear?
I mean, the first of the ones funded went into operation in December of 2023, which was the earliest it could as that is when funding was available and enough time had passed to get it permitted and installed, but wave the damned wand!!!!! demands internet padme. /s
In case anyone wants to know what is really going on with the EV charge stations;
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/first-ev-charging-station-funded-by-bidens-infrastructure-law-goes-online-2023-12-11/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biden-pours-623-million-into-ev-charging-void/
I'm really optimistic about electric vehicles, I don't know what you're talking about. LOL.
My doubt about electric vehicles is based on my doubt that the automotive industry will produce a quality product at a reasonable price. They're no different than any other short-term profit based business.
I agree. They seem to put everything in the cars and sell them as luxury EVs. Give me a basic car for $15k.
there's a lot of abbreviations in the article that I don't understand or know lol. what's a BEV? HPEV? etc.
Good article tho. From my limited view prices definitely are a huge limiting factor for electric vehicles, though they brought up a good point about the charge times. I guess if people treated it like their phones (charge every night) then it wouldn't be a problem?
Honestly not surprised that demand has dropped for them though. Anyone who was interested in it has either decided it's not worth it or already has one. Price puts them out of most people's budget, and with rising costs and stagnant wages, people can't really afford to take on monthly payments anymore. The environmental friendliness of them is heavily marketed, but won't bring into effect the large scale, immediate change we need to slow climate change. Plus there's the whole Tesla thing with delayed shipping and paywalling features built into software (admittedly not up to brush with Tesla tho).
For a while they were a new, impressive technology, and while I still think they're cool, until they become very, very cheap and accessible, I won't be getting one. The fad is starting to die out.
BEV?
BatteryElectricVehicle
HPEV
HybridPluginElectricVehicle
Yes completely agree. Especially the price, most people don't want to pay or can't afford a 45-50k usd car after subsidies. (This is the minimum pricepoint to get something comparable to an average gas car, both trim wise and to get an at least acceptable range)
And let's be honest about the subsidies, they just allow the car companies to charge a higher price in the first place.. I expect the price to be about the same after they are gone.
Wish they would take the hybrid model and flip it. I love my gas/EV hybrid but the EV side of things is only good for 50miles or so. Its much more a gas vehicle really than an EV. Why not a primarily EV vehicle with large battery and a small gas generator for those Oh crap, I need another 50-100 miles right now with no time to charge moments?
Because you waste a lot energy transporting a heavy mostly useless gas tank and motor. In the other hand, if gas is main motor, you can use the battery / EV motor to get brake energy back and accelerate faster.
More market share for Volkswagen I guess. I just wish I knew which VW stocks to purchase, there are so many...
Someone more educated, please explain to me, why it’s impossible to just take the existing industry, take all the know how and engineering and direct efforts into electrifying (converting) existing cars instead of building new ones.
If the world was perfect and there was no nuance, no bad actors, no human factor involved - would it be a viable solution to cut back on the emissions without getting rid of the comfort that a car affords?
You'd need to gut the car completely and rebuild it, it would be more work than starting from scratch.
When you mass-manufacture things, they’re made in a very specific way using a very specific amount of material in a very specific size and shape in a very specific spot in order to accommodate the exact stuff that goes into the final product.
My biggest EV doubt is that everyone living in a condo/apartment doesn't have the option to install charging ports in their own parking space, so plug-in EVs are a terrible option ATM. I'll get on board when I see the change happen but knowing landlords I'm doubtful.
