this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
370 points (100.0% liked)

politics

23316 readers
2640 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 98 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (32 children)

Can someone explain to me why Americans seem so hostile towards Biden over Gaza all of a sudden?

US support for Israel goes back decades. America has been in bed with all sorts of dictators commiting heinous crimes and still is. Not to forget the illegal invasion of Iraq with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties or the long list of US war crimes revealed by WikiLeaks and largely indiscriminate drone strikes across the globe. Most of these seemed to elicit much harsher condemnation overseas while the US public appeared generally uninterested. So why does this conflict in Palestine in which the US isn't even an active party suddenly evoke such an emotional response?

[–] [email protected] 113 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • Younger generations are less pro Israel.
  • There's a segment of liberals that view any victimized or oppressed group as morally superior regardless of context.
  • Michigan specifically has a very high population of Muslim/middle eastern descent.
  • It's not that sudden, there's been growing criticism and calling Israel an apartheid state for years. The recent escalation in hostilities just made it more newsworthy.
[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 year ago

I would also add that social media showing real-time atrocities happening has also played a role.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

OK but republicans demanded help to Israel to help Ukraine, until they changed it up.
So it seems that although Biden may be bad, the only alternative is worse.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you're being punched in the gut, it's not reassuring that the other option is going to use a bat instead.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (8 children)

But why clear the way for the worse guy to get to you?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ya, Trump bad and all, but maybe it's Biden who should do more to get the anti-genocide vote. Isn't getting votes part of his job?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (3 children)

No, the president gets our votes automatically because he's got the job already and can beat the mean fascist man without tying! All we have to do is verbally abuse anyone criticizing Biden and we'll surely have him as president again and there'll be no problems come 2028 or anything!

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (12 children)

there'll be no problems come 2028 or anything!

Downvote them all you want, it’s a very poignant point that’s left at the wayside of defeating Trump right now. Joe wins in ‘24? The threat of a second Trump presidency is deferred, but he has fundamentally transformed American politics regardless

load more comments (12 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Progressives in a nutshell. They will be upset with the status quo no matter what.

Even if Bernie was nominated and elected, progressives would have turned on him within a year, because he wouldn't have been able to get policy passed without major concessions, which would then alienate the progressive base for not being perfect.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

"If you don't like our hellscape status quo then you're just looking for perfection" - out of touch democrat stans

load more comments (9 replies)
load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The American left is furious at Biden for the same reason we're angry at pretty much any President's foreign policy. We've opposed most of the interventions and support for dictators that presidents in the latter half of the twentieth century up to today have engaged in. But we have never been the majority, and haven't had the power to stop them. It's important to remember that about a third of the US is composed or pretty reasonable, pro-peace social democrats. The problem is that another third are "moderates" that are okay with empire as long as we pretend we're being nice, and the last third are maniacal religious fascists.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Mainly just due to the recency and severity of the conflict in Gaza, and the fact that it's an election year. Americans never cared when Israeli soldiers routinely dehumanized, murdered, and raped Palestinians in small numbers here and there, but the widespread media coverage of the conflict in Palestine has helped shape public opinion to recognize the incredibly disproportionate response on the part of Israel to the Oct. 7 attacks.

Biden is reaffirming the US's long-held stance on Israel, but it is a stance that is becoming less popular with many who disagree with what Israel is doing. Michigan in particular has a high population of Muslims who turned out in large numbers to oppose Biden, which is why this managed to become newsworthy.

I would also wager a good chunk of this narrative (certainly not all or even the majority, but a good chunk) is likely promoted by Republican-aligned groups who are using this momentum to discourage people on the fence from voting for Biden in the general to help secure a Trump win. Notably a lot of news coverage I've seen lately featured people confirming their plan to vote for Trump, rather than vote for no one, because of Biden's stance on Israel.

Trump himself is remaining relatively tight-lipped about his stance on Israel during this election cycle, despite being a vocal ally of Netanyahu during his previous term, to try to keep the dialog focused on Biden. But it is expected he will continue support for Israel, or even escalate it, due to his previous amicable relationship with Israel and based on how much his voter base likes to dehumanize Muslims (blocking all Muslims from entering the US was an early campaign promise of his in 2016).

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

So why does this conflict in Palestine in which the US isn’t even an active party suddenly evoke such an emotional response?

Because the US is by all means an active party. The US is selling Israel weapons (including weapons Biden has been bypassing Congress to sell), defending them on the international stage and literally sent them aircraft carriers to prevent anyone in the region from taking action. People have been found guilty in the Numenberg trials for less and people aren't liking the man who's supposed to represent them doing these things.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Can someone explain to me why Americans seem so hostile towards Biden over Gaza all of a sudden?

He proactively circumvented congress to sell Netanyahu weapons that he knew would be used for genocide.

Democrats can always find a lame procedural excuse when there's something they ran on but don't want to do, but when it's something they want to do like enable genocide (and oh lordy do they ever), procedure and decorum evaporate in a puff of hypocrisy and convenience.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Part is the fact that the Americans most likely to be upset by the violence in Gaza are the same that are likely to vote for him. And he's being largely unreceptive to their criticism. In any other election, that would mean his base would probably just let his opponent win. There's an obvious problem with that this time.

Basically, Biden is forcing the nation's left wing to pick between showing their disdain for genocide overseas and stopping fascism to at home. It's not a fair choice and people are bitter about it.

load more comments (10 replies)
[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

In the early 2000's we weren't as connected as we are now and people relied a lot more on cable/network news.

But also, and this is really important to understand, the civilian casualties from the Iraq war were over much larger areas, populations, and time. In the same time frame the rate of casualties was far lower. Coalition forces also did their best to avoid civilian casualties by not targeting hospitals, not kettling civilians, and certainly not doing a concerted bombing campaign with large bombs into highly populated areas.

A lot of what's happening with the rate of civilian casualties is because the IDF has thrown all of those protections out the window. They're specifically destroying the food, water, and medical infrastructure of Gaza. When people inevitably try to evacuate they can only do so further into Gaza. The IDF doesn't allow them to evacuate through their lines into cleared areas. This means people can never actually get away from the fighting. Those are all large scale war crimes designed to increase the number of civilian casualties. But they aren't removing troops credibly accused of war crimes from the area either. In fact they've shown no willingness to prosecute tactical level warcrimes such as shooting clearly marked journalists in a quiet area in broad daylight.

Just today the report landed on NPR radio that the IDF opened fire into a crowd waiting for food aid. The IDF is of course claiming the crowd was threatening. But we've known how to securely disperse food aid for decades. Those soldiers may very well have been threatened, but their officers set that situation up. Also of note is just how fast this gets out to the world in the era of social media.

And we haven't even talked about the immense amount of war weariness in the US.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Guess you missed the huge anti Iraq war protests in the early 2000s. And the fact that we've been making Internet jokes about that and George Bush junior since forever.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

Potential narrative or sentiment shift driven by bots in the wake of the upcoming election?

There's definitely a lot of sentiment against him for what he's done in regards to this of course but it's seemed to have accelerated in an unnatural fashion.

load more comments (9 replies)
load more comments (22 replies)
[–] [email protected] 73 points 1 year ago (6 children)

THIS is how you protest vote. Bravo Michigan Democrats. I hope they still vote for him in the general, but I'm still glad they're making the DNC sweat.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] [email protected] 59 points 1 year ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If you're wondering why anyone who claims to be a Democrat would lend their support to Trump; considering he will be much more hostile towards Hamas than Biden has been in his support for Isreal. It's because Americans have a fundamental misunderstanding of how our democracy works. It's not their fault either. Political science teaches us that voting is our voice and we should use our vote to express ourself. After seeing this dynamic play out every election cycle these type of issues always come up as a concerted effort to spoil the results. The idea that we can use the general election to express our opinion in this political climate is flawed since no one considers the candidates fit for office. No rational person. In the case of the presidency we need to use our vote as damage control because down ballot is much more crucial.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The downvote bots are out in force today. Downvoting anyone who remotely suggests that abstaining from voting or boycotting Biden helps Trump, who is polling higher, win the presidency. That, or they're all accelerationist fundies who want to see Revelations happen.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago

The strength of the uncommitted campaign “surprised” Biden’s campaign, the Times added, noting that the movement is now likely to spread to other states.

The White House contrition in Dearborn, where more than half of residents are Arab American, did not appear to quell criticism. “Uncommitted” beat Biden 56-40 in the city, winning 47 of the city’s 48 precincts with most of the votes counted, according to the Detroit Free Press.

“That’s a wow,” CNN’s John King exclaimed while the votes were still being counted Tuesday night.

“This is a place President Biden carried big time in 2020. This is key to his chances of defeating Donald Trump in Michigan,” he said, adding that the concentration of votes signals that Biden’s “big problem” is that “Muslim Americans who were critical, absolutely critical to his big margin in Michigan in 2020, are telling the president tonight that they are mad.”

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Who should Biden worry about more? Getting the left wing of his party to nominate him, or getting the general electorate to the polls in November? It's a no brainer calculation.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 year ago (57 children)

I mean, the Democrats have been screwing the actually Left for decades now so...

load more comments (57 replies)
[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A 100k means Michigan goes red. He's playing chicken with the country at this point.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's a proven strategy for the Democrats. That's how they got Trump, and that got them tons of funding and dropped the bar all the way to the floor. Why would they give up now?

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Who should Biden worry about more?

I think those 726k Trump voters are still winnable if Biden can just move a liiiiittle bit farther to the right.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Despite these red flags I think people will just vote for him as a counter vote to Trump. America would rather have a President asleep at his desk than one who wants to burn the house down.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (50 children)

The choice is pretty easy:

Aid and support to Israel

Or

Aid and support to Israel, and give Ukraine to Russia, and give Taiwan to China, and implement fascism at home

load more comments (50 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (9 children)

What boils my blood is that everyone kinda accepted right's reaction to the president. For them it's all about theatrics and how much of a frenzy the president can whip with a twitter account, and nobody cares about policies. Biden's administration is incredibly effective, they appoint people when they needed, they organise commissions when appropriate, they propose and support bills and legislations, you know, all the things that presidential administration is suppose to do, and apart from knee-jerk reaction on Israel issue, they were on the right side every time, and they fixed a lot of damage that previous guy made.
But Biden isn't a wanabe dictator that tries to rule around checks and balances to achieve loud social media headlines, so everyone calls him president asleep and waits for Trump but good (and I can't stress enough how bad that would be actually)

load more comments (9 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

A couple figures to aid the discussion. Hot off the presses from todays polling:

Biden versus Trump (up to date as of today):

Biden versus Trump and Clinton versus Trump (X axis is days out from the election):

For edification, Clinton versus Trump 2016 (keep in mind that Trump and Clintons polling numbers in the early parts of this figure represent being in contested primaries):

Another version comparing 2016 to 2024 (but more focused on the period of time before the election):

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I don't find these kinds of comparisons and "latest data points" to be particularly helpful in these kinds of discussions. Voter sentiment is fickle, and how you quantify the "Uncommitted" movement will affect how the data is presented.

We don't know how the Uncommitted will actually vote in November, though we can be certain at least some will not vote for Biden if nothing changes. It's a political game of chicken, and it's Biden's move.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (27 children)

We don’t know how the Uncommitted will actually vote in November, though we can be certain at least some will not vote for Biden if nothing changes. It’s a political game of chicken, and it’s Biden’s move.

Clinton lost Michigan by 0.2% and it cost her the election. Her campaign opted to not focus on the rust belt and delivered us Trump in the first place.

Biden is losing this election, and I think if a Trump presidency concerns you, its especially worth considering.

Biden can't afford to lose any voters in Michigan. His policies are working against his ability to gather support in the 2024 election. We can't wait until after November to have this conversation. It needs to happen now.

load more comments (27 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Considering it was Hamas who just today rejected a ceasefire agreement that could have gone into effect by the end of the week, maybe people should start voting "uncommitted" against them instead of Biden.

This entire fucking fiasco is between Palestine and Israel, who have been fighting constantly since Biden was born and will probably continue to fight long after Biden is dead and gone. Neither side is going magically "go away" and nor should they. Both groups of people have a legitimate historical and cultural claim to live in this land and the choice was made to split this land long before most any of them were even born. The Israeli Jew and the Palestinian Arab Muslims simply have to learn to coexist peacefully and reject extremism or there will only ever be more war and violence.

There is a "simple" solution: free the hostages immediately, turn over people who committed war crimes (on either side) for prosecution, return borders to 1949, create an internationally enforced DMZ, stop illegal settlements, and stop the damn fighting. NONE of that is on Biden, nor is it the singular responsibility of the United States to manage.

Even if you cynically believe that all of this is just some kind of America-backed proxy war (which, if you look at the history of the region spanning thousands of years, it clear is not), then you should at least apply that same logic to the European countries that back Israel as well as Iran, Russia, and the other countries that have backed Hamas and called for violence in the region.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Your comment is pretty reasonable but I don't think you're misinterpreting the criticism of Biden here. The US is and has been supplying Israel with virtually unlimited arms and support for decades now. This support has come with very few strings attached. Biden could easily make aid contingent on many of the things you mention, and it would put the Israeli government in a real bind, forcing them to make concessions that their right wing doesn't want to make. Biden isn't being blamed for the whole conflict, and isn't expected to fix it on his own. But he's got a lot of leverage that he refuses to use in the interests of peace. This same problem recurs with basically every president, as AIPAC's influence on the American government is substantial.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›