this post was submitted on 19 Feb 2025
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The thing that NOBODY seems to understand, or maybe not willing to admit is, you CANNOT group people together.
It's the whole reason racism logically makes no sense. At all.
"Oh, all those dirty (insert race here) are good for nothin! They're all assholes!"
And sure, regardless of what race you inserted there, there's going to be some assholes. There's also going to be some amazing people that you're unfairly judging.
And it's not just races. It's anything. Races, genders, religions, countries, social groups, book clubs, whatever.
If you think all people of one group think the same on everything, you're just factually wrong. And if you use that incorrect fact to judge that group, now you're just an asshole.
I've found that people th]?6ink judging people is bad, and wrong. I don't think so. I think some people are just terrible at judging people, and miss the point of judging people. You're supposed to judge them as an individual. Not as (insert group here).
I think we can safely shit on Nazis as a whole, though.
My critic to what the other guy said, is that you can judge a group of that group is specific enough to judge them on these characteristics.
Are all christians bad? Hell no. Active adult members of the Westboro Baptist Church? Hell yes. They are bad because their website is literally godhatesfags.com.
Now Nazis are fucking Nazis. 11 millions murders should be enough to judge them as a group and those who liked it.
Yup. What are they actually advocating for? What are their true core beliefs?
It should also be noted that there are groups you can control your membership of (political parties, religions) and groups you are forced into (ethnicity, sexuality). The group you choose to join speaks far more about how terrible or good you are. The worst groups and people are those that attack people based on groups they are forced into, bigots and fascists.
Always found it weird that there are people who believe that the immortal and all powerful creator of the universe is for some reason deeply, deeply concerned with what ~10% of a particular branch of weird hairless apes decides to do with their genitals enough to do things like call down plagues and natural disasters over it. Like that's just....such an extreme level of being a gooner that it's even more absurd than the whole monotheistic God of everything idea to begin with.
Clearly the universe was created by committee - that's how you end up with things like the platypus when the bird team and the mammal team are forced to compromise on a design to get the product shipped on time.
Modern nazis? Yes. They can all go fuck themselves.
Historical nazis? Like the ones from the 1920s-1945? Maybe. I'm unclear how many of them knew what being nazis actually meant. Like, the average nazi soldier in some 1942 battle. Does he know about jews dying? Does he know the things the nazis stand for? I'm not saying yes or no, because I legit don't know. I find it hard to believe that millions of soldiers all knew, and still went along with it.
Now the SS? Oh, those assholes KNEW! They were far enough up the ladder that they knew exactly what was going on. They were the ones enforcing it.
Same as the nazis who ran the camps.
I read about this one guy who was basically the warden of one of those camps. Directly responsible for literally millions of dead jews in 4 years. They put him on trial at the Nuremburg trials, and he says he did nothing wrong. So they asked him if they threw him in that same oven, would that be wrong? He said no. Sooooo......that's what they did. One of the last things he said was that it was ironic that the one who was to throw the switch on his death was Jewish.
That's not irony. That's payback.
Fuck off with that nazi apologist bullshit. The whole nazi party ideology was based on hating minorities and blaming them for Germany's economic and social ills. Who fucking cares about the details, the whole party was hate filled rage bait just like modern Republicans.
I don't want to say 'Itodaso' but the guy went from "Not all men" to Nazi apologist in ONE post. These guys are all over Lemmy and it's super depressing.
If you want to educate the person above, don't start with "fuck off". Just explain to them why they are wrong and corroborate with historical bits as you please. The fuck off is completely unnecessary and counter-productive
No. Fuck Nazi apologists.
Does it feel good getting off to demonizing people who don't know better while accomplishing absolutely nothing of value?
What is he, a goddamn four year old? Who the fuck doesn't know Nazi's are bad are you fucking kidding me here? Nobody is 'getting off' on anything, this person called out a Nazi apologist. There's no clean wehrmacht, it was a Nazi lie by higher ups to save their own fucking skin.
From 16 Days in Berlin: (I can't be assed to find the original attribution, go do it yourself if you care to.)
Here's a list of the companies that used slave labour from concentration camps.
There now I've done the thing where the lefty finds the answers for you.
Fuck fascism, fuck Nazi's, fight them everywhere you see them, give them no ground, no quarter. Defend each other because even the centrists will side with them, just like last time.
Why are you saying all this to me? This should've been in your response to the other guy. Hell even just linking the myth of the clean Wehrmacht article would've been a lot more productive than calling them a Nazi apologist right out the gate.
Because I'm going to make goddamn sure you understand what you're doing so the next time you think we should talk nice to the people defending a group that designed and implemented genocide of more than one people group as a fucking core ideology you'll pause and maybe reflect on if this is the best time to be super cordial with some guy about to launch into 'I'm just saying maybe the numbers are exaggerated.'
My grandmother wasn't thrown in a camp by fucking elite waffen SS guards it was random fucking Wehrmacht child rapists who were taught that Deutschland über alles.
Sigh can you calm down there for a second? I realize that they were parroting clean Wehrmacht propaganda that is, in fact, completely false. However, nothing in their reply made it seem like they have any Nazi sympathies, and instead simply believed propaganda they'd come across or made a not illogical assumption that simply turned out to be false. If you consider that to be an unforgivable sin rather than a misconception that can be corrected then enjoy your ideologically pure trip to fascistland I guess. Otherwise maybe try educating them so they at least don't spread the same propaganda elsewhere where someone might actually believe it. If then they turn out to be a bad faith actors or dig their heels you can comdemn their Nazi apologia all you want.
When it comes to Nazi stuff? No, absolutely not. Fascists run the US right now, and I am rightly worried about what that means. We have actual Fascists running the country with nukes, with an army they spend more on than most of the world combined. Fascists are always stopped by picking a fight they can't win, and if these apologists and 'well were they really that bad' or whatever it is this time buy them sympathy, they buy them time to creep into each office, each group of people. Suddenly you have Jews for Hitler and they go 'see? If we were really bad, would these people defend us?'
So no I'm not going to calm down, I'm going to very specifically point out we know exactly where this goes. This is the paradox of tolerance right here; we fight it everywhere. Not just when they say the genocide things, when they do any dog whistles, any of the talking points, we shut that shit down.
This is the same fucking stuff from the Nazi's. And we didn't beat it last time with softly worded retorts and appeasement, we did it when we stood up and fought back, we figuratively gathered all the bullied groups at school against the school bullies and pummelled them so badly they couldn't hurt us again. Because Fascists pick on the smallest target, because they need the money, the distraction, an External Enemy to focus people on. And it starts here, in the pubs, in the break rooms, in the internet forums, on message boards, that they build their support base.
So call this paranoid or that it's me being emotional, I don't care, because all I have to do is point at the past and I'm proven right.
At first I was with you but less so with each reply.
You are missing the core argument of your interlocutor. From a purely utilitaristic standpoint, educating and correcting someone who seems to be in good faith but repeating propaganda or lacking knowledge is more effective that being an asshole (which BTW completely avoids the possibility of that person considering seriously what you are saying). So if you want to "shut it down", your actions are ineffective or counterproductive.
You do you, of course, but nobody is asking to tolerate Nazis.
Exactly
You don't get to say shit.
Like the 'innocent German farmer soldiers' who had no idea what was happening? This is how that starts, dude, seriously, this isn't even a clever attempt at a wedge issue. It's as in-your-face as it could be.
Posters have limited energy for polite niceties to people they disagree with. Not one joule of that energy goes to kindness towards Nazi apologists.
Stop being an apologist for nazi apologists.
I told them why they are wrong and if anger keeps them from learning then they weren't going to learn anyway.
So just to make it clear everything you said in your first paragraph is completely false. It's something known as the clean Wehrmacht myth.
Oh yes, they knew, all of them. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
John Rabe's journal is a wild ride.
He was a Semiens branch manager in China in Nanking during the Rape of Nanking.
It's full of him doing everything he can to minimize the casualties and harm and then he'll be like "China is great because there aren't any Jews here, I know Herr Hitler wouldn't accept such wanton murder and rape from his allies if he knew about it. He's a good socialist and a friend of the workers, after all!"
And then Rabe, the "Good Nazi," fresh from saving countless lives from the IJA, returns to Germany and says he approves of the Party 100% in 1938, and to anyone's knowledge never breathed a word of criticism about the Holocaust.
Yeah, nope. Get out of here with Nazi whitewashing. Germans knew what Nazis stood for. Nazis didn't even try to hide what they wanted to do.
The citizens in nazi Germany was very much aware of the anti-semitism and the violent nature of the nazi party.
If you want to claim that they didn't know of the systemical murder of e.g. Jewish. Based on my understanding, you are wrong. But even if you want to ignore that, they knew of the violence against Jewish and enabled it.
This shit was public
I'd like to quote my awsome history teacher here: "People went to the camp on a sunday stroll, looking at the victims as if it were a zoo"
Another great example: A Wehrmacht troop is tasked with pillaging a village. The officers clearly state that this will include killing women and children. They explain that every soldier has the right to refuse to take part in this and will not face any consequences. Out of a hundred less then ten men refuse.
Also, the people from concentration camps were used as forced laborours. They were led through towns like callte in the morning when their shift started, and led back the same route after their shift ended.
People knew what the regime was doing. To varying degrees, surely, but with all the xenophobic propaganda, the burning of books, "entartete Kunst", the deportation of millions of people I find it hard to believe that people were that clueless. Because after all, the NSDAP didn't try to hide it. They wrote it on their banners all proud.
Let me tell you that it has been socially unacceptable to make apologies for anyone who flew the Nazi flag ever since 1945.
Yes, I understand you're trying to take a nuanced approach to the Nazis who had been drafted since being kids, etc, but just don't.
History already happened, and the last of the original Nazis are slowly dieing out (youngest Nazis tended to be 16 years old, so 1945-16 = born in 1929, so they'd be about 96 years old). They don't need a random stranger to try to defend them.
Nazism is a failed ideology that abused large parts of the world. It doesn't need defending.
So it's a-ok as long as you (pretend that you) don't know what you are fighting for? So it's better to be a murderous yes-man than to question or face that you (directly or indirectly), through killing/enslaving/torturing innocent people, are a piece of shit with no spine or balls? That's... better? That's okay? That's, uh, let's say an interesting take. An awful, braindead take... But it sure is interesting, I suppose. If I were to start killing people that you are close to, would that be fine if I was like 'oops my bad lmao I didn't know what I was doing'?
Signed,
what the fuck?
Bro... Not historical Nazis? You mean the ones that committed the most despicable evils in all of humanity's written history?
No. All Nazis can be grouped together and judged the same, not as individuals. They lost that right as soon as they started being intolerant.
🤦🏻♂️
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
I know a person who genuinely thinks men shouldn't have any rights because they're so bad. She's like "women are superior, they develop emotional maturity earlier" or "all men are assholes". I think she's a lost hope.
Don't talk to them anymore. Antisocial people should be isolated.
Does she think trans men deserve rights?
Every answer to this question is that she's a TERF
At some point I told her about how Meta removed tampons from men's bathrooms and she was like "hell yeah men would just ruin everything, take all the tampons for no reason"... seemingly forgetting trans men exist?? Then I said "what about trans men?" and the answer was "oh".
As a trans woman I don't think I feel safe around her.
There’s a difference between judging people on a category they don’t choose vs. a set of beliefs they choose to follow.
If I tried to claim all brown-eyed people are evil, I’d be bigoted because eye color does not determine who you are as a person. But if I claimed that all members of the Puppy Kickers Club are evil because they literally believe in kicking puppies and require doing so frequently as a requirement for membership, then my claim is valid.
You have to look at it from the opposite to understand why social psychology and sociology works: people inherently group people together and that very grouping creates power imbalances and forces shared perspectives. Social constructs are constructs, yes, but they also have very tangible effects.
The root problem with society is people.
I mean you can and you can't. All X people are Y will never be true while some X people are Y will almost always be true. Stereotypes come from most X people are Y and is often true. There is a reason it got started although in some cases it is just straight up propoganda or differences in definition. Like lazy. lazy about what? I straight up rather do any physical activity than dealing with bills, budgeting, and taxes. My ancestry is known for drinkin. I rarely drink. Being able to count in a year the times on one hand and zero not being uncommon. If you were at a family wedding though you would not notice me not drinking especially given all the male family members who get closer to your face when talking to you the more they drank. So it does not hold for me but it does for like 90%+ of my extended family and from my other experiences with my folks who are not family and share my ancestry it is a typical thing.