this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2025
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I think Blåhaj handled this person well over all. Even if Drag wad just 100% troll, drag wasn't being fed in Blåhaj and had to go elsewhere. But also there was always the chance that drag is just someone on a journey or with things to sort out. Some people have completely given up on being any gender and treat it like a joke in an almost nihilistic way. But clearly there's a line between that and an actual troll.
Either way, I wouldn't say that it's standard heterosexual cisgender behaviour to go as far as Drag did just for the lulz. So maybe one of these days, Drag will have an awakening and remember how no one in the community either fed drag or shunned drag when drag was confused and behaving badly.
I can agree with this, but the part that's missing is that sometimes what someone needs to hear on their journey is "My person you are OUT OF YOUR MIND right now, please come back to your fucking senses and knock this shit off because we care about you."
If Drag was trolling, the troll was exposing how shallow non-binary acceptance is for your average "progressive."
"Not feeding the troll" in that case is treating their request with a minimal level of respect, and that was simply too much inconvenience for 90% of Lemmy.world and a very potent reminder of why trans and enby folks need their own spaces.
Including some people in this thread with an axe to grind and no self awareness to stop it.
I personally don’t think they were a troll but I am also not sure I agree with banning people for not remembering or wanting to use their unusual pronouns.
But I am not well-educated on the topic of neopronouns so if someone feels like educating me or suggesting some readings I am open to it.
No one was banned for not rembering drags pronouns or for accidentally getting them wrong.
People were banned for dismissing the validity of neopronouns or for deliberately and repeatedly getting pronouns wrong.
I gotta add in some support to this.
I specifically said that using individual pronouns was more trouble than it's worth to me, and was not banned.
I even questioned the role of neopronouns, what impact they have, and expressed my opinions that disagree with some aspects of it (which changed, btw), and was not banned.
And, I specifically rarely used their (drag's) neopronouns during any interactions on the instance and was never banned.
Considering I'm a known asshole, and I'm confident that some of my comments got reported because people said they would/did, I never got banned from the instance, and afaik not from any communities, though I'd have to check the mod log to be certain of that part.
Regardless of whether or not anyone agrees with the policies regarding neopronouns, the admins have a pretty damn good track record of enforcing them evenly. Yeah, that's partly because they didn't ban me, but if my pissy, contrarian ass didn't get banned, it certainly points to them paying attention to nuance in their decisions.
Also, as a tangent to all of that, I know trans people irl that depend on blahaj lemmy as their place of support and community. If making a place where people can have that did mean being heavy handed, even if it meant I got banned, I'm okay with that. We need a place like that. Now more than ever.
Was it dismissing or just not understanding? To be honest my recollection is a bit fuzzy.
I’m a little afraid to be having this conversation lest I be accused of prejudice against trans or nonbinary folks, a prejudice I try my best to fight against. But I don’t even understand the connection there since we already have well-established systems of pronouns for such people.
Personally, I truly can’t fathom why neopronouns are necessary and while I don’t want to disrespect anyone, they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them… especially when they are implicitly linked to having sex with non-human mythological creatures.
But maybe I am just ignorant. Drag was my first introduction to this concept. I’d like to learn more about this.
Some folk require understanding before they offer acceptance. Those folk will frame it as “just not understanding”. I frame that as lack of acceptance. Acceptance isn’t contingent on understanding. You or I not understanding an aspect of someone elses identity has nothing to do with the validity of their identity.
If you wish to ask someone questions about their pronouns and identity, you’re welcome to do so, but remember they don’t owe you an answer, and whether they offer you an answer or not, and whether you understand their perspective or not, either way, gatekeeping and invalidating their identity is not on.
That was the other option I offered folk. If someone has stated their pronouns, either use them, or if you can’t bring yourself to use them, don’t engage with the person.
If the person is trolling, report them. But even if they’re trolling, the above statement still stands. Respect their pronouns or don’t engage with them as you report them.
How can one accept or reject a thing without understanding what it is they are accepting? Is not immediately changing the way one speaks without a reason or even an explicit request equivalent to denying someone’s identity? I don’t think my discomfort with neopronouns is because I reject anyone’s identity. I don’t even understand what such a person’s identity is. Unlike established pronouns, neopronouns do not have any meaning at all to me because I’ve never heard them before and no one has defined them. What do they signify? I assume something different for each one, so what is it? I’ve always been careful with my language, so using words without a clear understanding of their meaning makes me uncomfortable.
Language is a very meaningful topic for people. Both for the speaker and the spoken to. We have all been acculturated to speak in a certain way, and to understand the meanings of such speech in a certain way. I don’t think asking people to change the way they speak is as trivial as you seem to imply. Nor is declining to change the way one speaks the same as saying “I reject your identity”, unless such a meaning is intended.
And of course I understand that someone may not want to have this (or any) conversation. But I also feel that you can’t expect people to change without them understanding why they need to change. Most people hate change, it’s just human nature. So if you choose not to educate people, you’ll have to accept that they remain ignorant until such time as someone takes on that burden.
I'm trans. Cis people literally can never truly understand my experience or why the things that are important to me are important. Acceptance can't be contingent on understanding they can never have.
Neopronouns are the same. You can work on your own understanding to reduce your discomfort but your discomfort should be your problem, not something you get to force on to others
And yet you're fine when transphobes are harassing trans people and telling them to kill themselves, not to mention using right-wing memes made to attack trans people.
If people cannot understand your experience, it's not because you are trans and they are cis. There is no universal trans experience and you still need to work to make yourself understood to other trans people, who have entirely different experiences from your own. People have the capacity to understand things outside their direct experience. Some people go 40 years thinking of themselves as cis, and then change their mind!
Well, it's not just that. As you say, even trans folk can't understand other trans folks experience. But that still speaks to my point. Acceptance shouldn't be gatekept behind understanding
I think the broader issue is, you say you're uncomfortable saying something. And at the same time other people say the want to be addressed like that. And, now what? I mean those might all be valid concerns/feelings/whatever. But we can't have it both ways. So what do we do to solve this? You need to find some agreement on how to address someone, or silence is the other option.
I actually think silence might be the worst option since that’s a very exclusionary solution that isn’t helping build bridges between people. So it may be someone is going to have to just get over it. Maybe that should be me, I don’t know. But I think it would help me to do that to hear from somehow how it makes them feel and why it’s important to them.
Let’s be real—the vast majority of us were raised in a very cisnormative culture. And there was a lot of conscious and unconscious bigotry that most of us absorbed from that. So for me it has been a bit of a process over the years to peel back the layers and try to get it all out of me. I think I still have to do more work at this. While it doesn’t seem to me today that my discomfort is coming from a place of prejudice, I’m also not sure my own perspective on that is always correct.
I kind of went through a similar thing with trans folks back in the day. I struggled to understand the concept of gender dysphoria and hearing the emotional experiences of trans people was very helpful in understanding why inclusive language matters. While I can’t really wrap my head around why it matters so much, it is a raw and emotional issue that I can help with, so it’s just kind of an issue of basic politeness at that point.
If neopronouns are the same then I guess I will try to go along with them even though they seem like a quite confusing and difficult way for people to communicate. But again, it would be nice to hear from someone that yes, this really matters to them. I know that may be asking a lot but it would help me.
Hi, another trans person here.
I was also one of those vast majority of people raised in cisnormative culture. Just like you. After a lot of thought and introspection I realized the person I am in my mind, did not match the corporeal form I was given. So I am taking steps to make that vision of my self a reality. That often means using language that is not used in “cisnormative culture”. As with any language you don’t speak, you have two options. Learn to speak it yourself and come back to converse with those people OR choose not to learn it and move on with your life, leaving them be. Some people think there is this funny little third option called “colonization”, but it’s generally frowned upon. /lh
Or, do what my instance did, and ban him for being a transphobic troll that harasses people, which is the only sensible action.
Drag does not use he/him.
Since the mod took issue with my comment, let me rephrase it so that it doesn't break any rules, because I think it's important for everyone to understand the abusive and transphobic behavior you willfully enable.
Are you trans?
Willing to have a casual explanation of it? An in depth one isn't on topic for this community. And yes, this is the condensed version, I could write a small pamphlet on this.
If so, read on. If not, throw me a DM and I'll try and give a more detailed version of my take after having changed my mind on the subject as a whole.
Neopronouns are not truly necessary. There's other ways to achieve the same goal
However, respecting them is, and it's important to recognize that the concept behind them is an important one.
The kind of neopronoun drag used aren't the only kind of neopronoun. I can't recall the name for that type, but it is an individualized version that has a different kind of merit.
The core of neopronouns is redefining gender and language. It's reframing how we think about and deal with agender, gender fluid, non binary, and other labels that represent people for whom the traditional masc/fem/neutral pronouns don't really fit. Now, yes, the singular neutral they/them does partially achieve that. But it isn't necessarily perfect because it's the same as just saying "other".
Standard neopronouns like xe/xem/xyr attempt to rectify that, in part, by providing a general use new (neo means new) words that are inherently without gender, and are also internally consistent (hence why xyr replaces the plural they/them rather than leaving that in place).
What dragon rider's pronouns do (and here I'll switch to just calling the person drag because arthritis) is a furtherance of that basic idea. The concept of individual, single word pronouns takes the concept of reframing gender in language to its logical extreme.
Now, here we have to address the elephant in the room. Otherkin. Otherkin are the folks you think about when you see a lot of individual pronouns. They also want their pronouns to be different from the norm, though they don't all want individual ones. They do tend to want pronouns that reflect their belief that they are different by being kin to their other. That's a simplification, but that's a tangent on a tangent already
Drag, afaik, isn't otherkin.
The connection to drag is that the individualized pronouns look similar, and it's where most people draw the line. Now, I have my opinion about that side of things, but for this purpose let's set the assumption that their belief is valid.
That's where we get back to drag. Drag, in choosing their user name, set up a fight from the beginning. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but choosing dragon (rider), and dragon fucker as user names, it was inevitable.
But drag is not actually their user name, nor what you would call a name at all. It isn't directly linked to them wanting to fuck dragons, which aren't real. It's a knock on effect.
Pretend, instead, that their user name is southsamurai, and they wanted the individual pronoun "sam". Still some confusion, obviously, but it isn't a fight from the beginning.
So, if my pronouns are sam/sam, I'm requesting an individual pronoun. I'm saying, up front, that by requesting that, that I have a sense of myself that doesn't work with standard gendered pronouns, nor with the commonly used neopronouns. I'm saying, please interact with me as an individual, not as a generic person.
That's why it matters. Now, I'm not saying anyone has to agree to use them. I've had many a discussion about that, and not just with drag. It's a big ask. It's asking everyone you meet to upend their brain and restructure their language pathways entirely, so that they can fluidly switch between known individual pronouns, and generic ones, without making errors.
But, even if you aren't willing or able to do that, I have come to agree that the point of individualized pronouns is important, and that standard neopronouns need to be adapted to, because language does matter. Our thinking is shaped by those language pathways. Language is how we exchange ideas, and (except for people that don't think in words at all) it's how we process our thoughts.
There are languages with no gendered pronouns, and some with long lists of them because there's more than two recognized genders, or because the pronoun used is grammar based regarding when and where it's used.
So, in English, our entire mind is influenced by having only three standard options: masculine, feminine, and neutral. It's inflexible because of that. And, you can see evidence of that via the rejection of the singular they/them, despite it having been a part of the language for much longer than trans issues have been in the public awareness.
Again, you might disagree about that. That's fine, I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to explain why I changed my mind from "that's silly" regarding all neopronouns, to having the opinion that they matter.
I now think that they matter because it's an effective way to shake up the way we think about gender and language. I think that's important because we all suffer limitations based on the limited English pronoun structures. In order to improve that, a shakeup is needed.
Drag is the reason I changed my opinion, and that's despite still having objections to individual pronouns as being more trouble than they're worth at this point in time. That's also despite my impression and opinion on the otherkin side of things being a hindrance to everyone else.
I disagree with calling individualized pronouns pronouns, mostly because the whole idea of pronouns, like you said, is to replace a noun with a generic reference. As you also said, words shape our thoughts, but they also have meaning. All that said, I can't think of a better way to reject the idea of pronouns without implicitly rejecting the person doing so, which I also don't believe is acceptable. I'd be happier if a better way was found, but making me happy isn't the goal of communication in general.
I've been watching this drama for a while and keeping my opinions to myself since I'm largely unaffected by this discussion, but your comments helped crystallize my opinions on this and come to a reasonable state. I still don't like the idea of individualized pronouns, but I can't see an option that both ignores them and still respects their users right to how they identify themselves (and I can't see a way to write that sentence without at least ignoring the whole subject). So thank you for that insight.
I like your explanation and also would say that Drag did a great job of forcing me to consider this section of grammar. I very much dislike "individual pronouns", similar to the other commenter, but specifically because they cause unnecessary frustration and discord in my already discordant neurodivergent brain (the point of pronouns is that there are ideas and contexts that absolutely require generic forms of nouns - breaking that section of language is very frustrating, especially as one who tries to show everyone the respect that any person deserves). However, like the other commenter, I do not see any way to engage conversationally and respectfully, without using them when requested.
So, even though it is internally aggravating, if I choose to engage, showing the basic decency of at least making a best effort of addressing one how they request is the least one can do, supposing that the individual is not specifically requesting to be addressed in a manner to elevate themselves over others (whether in good or bad faith, ex. "King", "Master", etc - save that for scenes, if that's your kind of thing).
Now, neopronouns and the like, I'm all about those because they don't break my brain and, as a bonus, many of them are novel to me.
Absolute bullshit. I called drag out and ONLY drag. I made no mention of neopronouns or even said anything remotely dismissive of pronouns as I am a huge supporter of all of it.
Yet I was banned because I called drag a shit tier troll that was making a mockery of the trans community.
Your comments were removed. You aren't instance banned
Community banned as I recall. And even removing the comments because I called them a troll and accused them of mocking the trans community was bullshit in light of the recent acknowledgment that they are- in fact, a troll.
They went to where they knew they could take advantage of the rules that protect the trans community- and then weaponized it to create drama and get shit removed.
I'm an instance admin. I don't issue community bans. I issue instance bans. If someone community banned you, it wasn't me.
I can’t check because blahaj modlogs won’t even load for me without timing out, but my point remains. I was banned/had comments removed for calling out a troll. Who did it is irrelevant.
You guys circled the wagons around a known troll and went scorched-earth on anyone that so much as said they weren’t being genuine.
The policy came from me. It's an instance level policy that you were never banned for.
I did remove some of your comments, and I will do that again if I become aware of misgendering, even if it's accidental. But it didn't get you banned then, and unless you start deliberately misgendering folk, it won't get you banned now either.
It’s not misgendering when it’s a troll that is mocking the trans community. Show me where I misgendered someone that wasn’t trolling your instance.
Let's say a troll comes along and uses neopronouns to undermine trans rights.
If your response to that is "You're a troll, I don't give a fuck about your pronouns", then you've given the troll exactly the thing they're trying to achieve, whilst also telling any trans people reading your posts that you only think their identity applies as long as they're well behaved. Which is to say, you don't hurt the troll, but actively encourage them, whilst also hurting the acceptance of gender diverse folk.
The only correct response to a troll in that scenario is to respect their professed identity, whilst banning them for trolling. Respecting someone's identity isn't a green light for ignoring anything else they do. But it sure is easy to conflate if you want to stir up a bit of drama at the trans communities expense.
Whatever makes you fell better. You protected a well-known troll when everyone tried to tell you- and you continued to protect them when proof was provided.
For the record: People can be thoroughly disgusted by a troll embedding themselves in your community as an “attack helicopter”- and simultaneously support the trans community. It’s called “nuance,” and it’s something one would assume an admin would have a firm understanding of.
Making a blanket protection around something and then blindly doling out bans and removals without understanding that people can and will take advantage of this can only be described as piss-poor moderation.
Because as it stands, by your rules. I can say that I identify as a 1972 Trans Am and demand that people cal me PontiacFucker and you will have to defend me against those that would accuse me of being disingenuous…. Right?
You'd benefit from doing some research on Isabel Fall.
Normalising the idea that only well behaved trans folk deserve to have their identity respected hurts the trans community far more than the actions of a theoretical troll slipping through the cracks occasionally.
Yep. I'd also ban you for trolling at the same time however, because your actions would make it clear that your goal here is to stir up drama in response to a moderation approach you don't agree with.
So then why did you protect drag? Are you willing to admit that seemingly everyone saw something you didn’t see? Because we all knew he was trolling. You protected him.
How did I protect drag specifically? Drag was banned from several blahaj communities and I was quite explicit in support of community mods right to make that decision.
The protection I did offer is the same protection I offer all our users, which is freedom from deliberate misgendering.
Though I can see why you might take issue with that, given that you just misgendered drag, despite our ongoing conversation.
You removed comments and/or banned people for calling them a troll. Which is exactly what they are.
Look, I’m sure you’re a cool person. You seem like you care about the right things. Outside of this single issue, I’m sure we’d probably get along fine. But I don’t see any understanding coming from this.
I believe you did wrong. And you don’t. And that’ll have to be okay with both of us.
I don't know how you have the energy to keep trying to educate people who don't want to understand! Massively respect you
That last part is transphobic. No trans person represents the trans community and setting higher standards for trans people than cis people is transphobic. You can call them out for being a troll, but using someone’s gender identity in an insult is always transphobic.
DragonRider's pronouns are "Drag" not "they", just because someone is a dick doesn't mean you don't respect pronouns. Gender isn't a reward for good behavior.
drag has stated that drag accepts they/them as well.
You're right. I honestly wasn't even thinking. Going to edit my comment now.
Drag is just someone with an unusual gender, bot has no qualms with that. Perhaps you should use Tumblr if you wanna see more people with out-there gender identities, the trans Tumblr community is part of the reason bot still uses that site
yay drone rights and such, am i rite?