this post was submitted on 27 May 2024
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Care to give a specific example?
In most sane places self-defense is allowed, so if someone is being violent you can use violence to stop them. Their really is only one use of this rhetoric - to break the Power Ranger rule and escalate from words to violence. You can find specific examples pretty quickly, but I know better than to point out the most obvious ones.
The issue is that it lets you skip some steps in justifying violent actions. There certainly are times that words can be enough to justify self defense, but they're pretty narrow situations. In an academic sense it's fine to use for analysis, but using it as a blanket excuse for violence is kind of weak.
I mean, if you can't find an example that isn't a fascist going mask off, then your just proving the point.
A fascist going mask off to me kind of involves attacking people. Not everyone will have the same definition.
Assuming you're talking about violence in response to peaceful, if shitty, ideas then you've found the ambiguity.
The statement is useless without actual definitions. So long as it's being used like this, the definition of intolerance will keep slipping so political opponents can be targeted without considering whether you're behaving morally.
Ok, yeah, this is what I wanted to get to. Otherwise we are just bouncing around vague ideas and I really didn't see an end to it.
Shitty ideas have consequences. There are several examples in history. Notably the German Nazi party. Which resulted in a lot of violence, death, and torture of innocent people. Not to mention a war. And it all started from a fascist ideology, just words.
At what point in time would violence been justified to prevent the bad stuff from happening? Hitler was just using words after all, until he had enough power. Then, well, you know.
Or are you of the opinion that violence should never be used? Like if we saw Hitler 2 coming, we should just talk about it and not do anything violent. Even if it means the same very bad outcomes.
Most don't. Most threats are toothless. Most angry words pass. Many people learn and grow, even from just words. Everyone is worthy of redemption. You've kind of chosen the worst result you can find to prove the rule, but genocides are more a result of pieces of shit getting into power more than words.
Regardless. Let's roll with the nazi angle. Edge cases are fun.
I haven't studied the rise of him well enough to give you a sane answer. Did he do a full Palpatine - just acted like a kind old man until he started gassing invalids? Or was it clear what his intent was? There's obviously a line before pumping exhaust into sanitariums.
Direct threats are actionable, and there are times I'm okay violating my own rules mildly - if someone gives my niece or nephew shit for miscegenation I'll be pretty close to violence.
I do give wide berth for expression, though. We're also mixing something else here - the difference between individual actors you can have empathy for and a government meatgrinder.
The line for intolerance is between bad ideas and outright genocide and the line for the response is between mean words and guillotines. This is kind of my point, though, right? We need to have some function where we can define an ethical response to an unethical action.
I am kinda confused while reading your post. It sounds like we agree. I am not by nature a violent person. In fact, I would rather not punch anyone. The problem is that history shows clear a progression when it comes to fascists. Their ideas spread like a virus and people who have not been educated about it are easily convinced, even though there is a bunch of history and philosophical evidence that bad outcomes will happen. Once they gain power, that is it.
As I am talking with the OP, it seems like they think that violence is never necessary. I think this is incorrect. I think you agree with me on that point at least.
I think the punching should only happen if they have a big audience or if they are open and loud about it. Obviously try to educate them first. But at the end of the day, if they are just a normal person that doesn't talk about their politics, and they salute a picture of Hitler before they go to bed. I am fine with that. They don't need to be punched, they can enjoy society as long as they stay quite about it.
The problem isn't the people, the problem is the idea. The people are fine as long as they don't spread the idea.
I feel like intolerance is kind of a wildcard. The initial intolerance could be anything from asking an ignorant question to trying to start a genocide, and the responding intolerance is much the same.
It's kind of like having a function that ignores the parameters and just gives a random response to intolerance. We agree because we've actually mapped the initial action to our reaction, so we know that with this input we get this other output.
Did I explain my objection well enough this time? I know it's probably me not knowing how to explain it properly.
Yeah, this makes sense. Would you feel better about the this: "It's ok to punch fascists"? Using the common definition for all these terms. I know this is slightly different from what OP was posting about.
It depends on the fascist? Common language suggests they're, what? None of them have real political ideals.
I'm good with punching people that use slurs or rhetoric to attack others,
Fascists want power to hurt people. They think they are making the world a better place by "removing" a "bad" group of people.
When do you start punching these people? If never, they are going to kill and harm a lot of people.
So, you start punching when they get credibly threatening. We let them be fucky and loud and when it gets violent or close to, we do damage.
Yes, I have no problem with that. I think we only need to target people who spread fascist ideology to a wide and/or large audience. The average fascist Joe, has very little reach and it would look bad if it seemed like random nobodies were being targeted.
Edit: When I say the average fascist Joe. I mean the average person who is a fascists. Not anyone named Joe. Sorry for any confusion.
Joe candidate or joe me?
Sorry, I meant the "average Joe" aka, the average person. I have edited my post to add clarification.
It started from their belief that they could suppress people just because they didn't like them. All they had to do was declare them "intolerant" of German society, and it became morally acceptable to force them out.
That mindset can't arise when society broadly values freedom of speech. In a society where the speech of even the worst bigots is protected, those bigots lose support every time they call for silencing their victims.
In a society where Hitler can't even call for censoring the Jews without pissing off the entire population of Germany, he certainly can't get support to exterminate them.
Ok, so let me get this strait. After Hitler gets his political power by creating Jews as a common enemy. By convincing most German people he will save them. But before the holocaust start happening. Your personally going to step up to Hitler and say "Hey, have you considered not using or violence? You should not use violence because it is bad". And then Hitler will slap his forehead in disbelief that he forgot that he could just not be violent?
I am not convinced this would do anything. I think you will get disappeared, but hey, if Hitler 2 comes up, feel free to try.
How?
Remember: in this hypothetical, German society values free speech. In this society, Hitler gains no more power than David Duke. Because he staunchly opposes the freedom of Jews to speak, he opposes the ideological principles of the nation, and never gains that power in the first place.
Ohh, so we are presupposing a tolerant society? Then yeah, that would work. But to an extent that is an impossibly. Somehow the racists and fascists would have to wake up tomorrow no longer being those things and then no new person could become those things. Not sure how that would happen without violence of some kind. So you have a chicken and egg problem.
Why?
Why do we need that sort of people to stop existing? Why do we need to exterminate them? Why do we need to load them up in boxcars and ship them off to death camps?
You're not quite understanding that those racists and fascists only have those powers that society would use against them. When society decides that words alone can never justify a suspension of rights, that curtails the ability of the fascists who want that power much more than it affects anyone else.
When you demand the right to silence and suppress a fascist who offends you, you grant that same right to the fascist that you offend, and he gets to use it much more broadly than you ever would. When you defend that fascist's right to speak, you strip him of his power to infringe on your rights, as well as the rights of everyone else.
Whoa there. It was your hypothetical of a tolerant society. I am just asking questions. Questions which you curiously didn't answer.
Listen, I will tell you a big difference between me, racists, and fascists. I only use violence if they don't keep their ideas to themselves. They, on the other hand, they will kill me no matter what I do. Its not the only difference, but it is important one.
I like to say I have no problem if you want to salute a picture of Hitler every night. As long as you keep your ideology to yourself.
Also, it's not about offense, it's about outcomes. History shows that really bad stuff (genocide) happens when fascists take power. The bad stuff is also a logical outcome of their ideology, so we will never have a good fascists government or ideology. This has been covered over and over in philosophy, it's a very well known thing.
Finally, the tolerance and non-violence arguments you are using empowers fascists and racists, not because they believe in those things, but because it is beneficial for a society to believe those things for fascists and racists to take power. Once they have power or while they gain it, it is easy enough for them to direct hate to a target group and get rid of the idea of tolerance and non-violence.
So what I am saying here, is you are making some new friends by posting this stuff. Yay!
Hitler only used violence on public enemies that didn't keep their ideas to themselves. You don't seem to comprehend that whatever authority you grant yourself, you also give to the fascists. When you allow yourself to silence your enemies, you allow them to silence their enemies, including you.
Which is why I am begging and pleading with you not to grant anyone that power, not even yourself. Because as soon as you claim it for yourself, you give it to them as well.
Do not wield a power you do not wielded against yourself.
Hey, I will stop being violent when there is no need to.
Speaking of which, did you want to answer my question about your hypothetical?
What would a tolerant non-violent society do with a bunch of fascists attempting to gain power to do violent activity?
If you have non-violent solution to this, I would happily change my stance.
Have I demanded a non-violent approach? I don't think so. You have not identified an acceptable point at which violence may be used, which is why I haven't discussed the possibility of violence.
So far, the actions you have discussed are far more egregious than those of the people you have identified as your enemies. So far, you are answering "unpleasant speech" with a physical attack. That is not a reasonable response.
.
So now we are just throwing away the hypothetical you brought up and you are just ad-homing me. Great! Well, I had hoped there was a good argument behind your edginess, but seems like it is just edge and inexplicably covering for fascists.
What did I say that was an ad hominem? You raised a point:
I am rebutting the point that you raised. You indicated you would use violence if they didn't keep their ideas to themselves. I took that to mean you would commit violence in response to their speech. My argument was that an inciting "speech" was not sufficient to justify a violent response, and that such a violent response is more egregious than the inciting speech.
That is not an ad hominem. I am not rebutting your argument on the basis of you being a bad person. I am arguing against the idea you raised, not you as a person.
Ok, then what is your alternative?
You know what fascists will do when they gain power. They will use a ton of violence against their targeted groups. Way worse than punching.
Do you just let them do it?
Karl Popper's Paradox of Intolerance tells society that in order to avoid fascism, we must become fascists ourselves. We must annihilate our enemies, so that society is safe for us. The intolerance paradox is fascism. It's just a form of fascism that "we" happen to agree with.
The Nazis didn't think themselves the bad guys. They thought they were doing the right thing for their society. They thought they were protecting themselves, their kids, their way of life. They never bothered to consider the possibility that they would regret their actions just a few years later. They never considered that their grandchildren would despise them for their behavior.
My "alternative" is for everyone to consider the possibility of regret long before committing to violence. To promote the virtues of Freedom of Speech. To celebrate the exercise of our right to speak, in all its forms, even as we denounce what is actually being said.
We answer speech with speech; we answer violence with overwhelming force. A fascist should be able to scream in my face about how much he hates me and wishes I was dead. That same fascist should kill me if I escalate to violence before he does. If you want to destroy a fascist, you can wait until he crosses the line from committing "speech" to commiting "violence".
Ok, so correct me if I am wrong. The moment right before Hitler 2 gives the order to start gassing the target groups, you will attempt to use violence to stop it. You will wait until then even though Hitler 2 has talked daily about how the target groups are less than human and should be removed from society. All of this talk while Hitler 2 is rising in power and people are starting to follow them blindly.
My friend, by the time you attempt to use violence on Hitler 2 to stop them. It's too late. You are going to get killed by the police before you get close to doing anything.
If your intent is to minimize violence, this is your score:
My score:
If you got something that will get me down to 0. I am willing and excited to hear about it.
You are wrong
Hitler 2 can go ahead and preach that as much as he wants.
A society that shares my free speech values recognizes that "removing people from society" is an offensive act. They do not share his values, so he never rises to power in the first place.
Fascists can only rise to power when the people demand the right to remove their enemies from society. Which is exactly what you are doing. The powers that fascists need to cause harm are the exact powers that you are demanding for yourself. When you have those powers, so do they. When those powers are denied to you, they are denied to fascists.
Good, I am ready to learn.
Ok, so, we have Hitler 2. They have just formed their options about how they hate whatever group and want them dead. They then go to talk to others about how problematic this target group is. And then everyone just ignore them because they implicitly are aware what Hitler 2 is talking about will eventually lead to violence?
Is that right?
Replace "Hitler 2" with "Fred Phelps" of the Westboro Baptist Church, and you can see how that scenario turned out for Fred. Basically, yes.
In a society that values free speech, the idea of "how they hate whatever group and want them dead" is the antithesis of that philosophy. Any time he "talks to others" about the people he hates, they recognize he is preaching an opinion contrary to that philosophy. Consequently, they shun him, rather than follow him. They leave him to say what he wants, but his speech alienates people instead of helping him consolidate power.
Fascism is destroyed when nobody - not you; not Hitler 2 - has power to silence dissent.
I see where you are coming from. I just don't think it can be pulled off in the current reality we live in. Fascism is spreading today. Things have been getting worse. The US has freedom of speech and the Fascist are currently using it as a shield. I am not saying we have to get rid of freedom of speech. I just think there needs to be consequences to saying dumb shit.
To be clear I don't want to lose freedom of speech to silence the fascists I just want to punch them and make fun of them if they do start spreading their ideology.
Mandatory
Religious school wants to teach creationism rather than evolution because it "goes against their beliefs" - law says they have to teach evolution because it's part of the national curriculum (which in turn is science based) and are not allowed to give creationism equal weight.
Religious school cries foul, says the government is bigoted and discriminating against their religion.
Is this a case of intolerance that needs to be bashed?
The government could probably still get them on sexual assault.
Oh for sure. Child marriage and genital mutilation is also an issue within this scope.
They're stuck 2 centuries in the past and expect to be able to impose their barbaric "beliefs" on everyone around them.
This depends, is the religious school private or public? If the religious school is private, is the religious belief publicly fascist in nature?
If the school was public then it is going against the law. The government has a monopoly on violence and will use the violence to uphold the law. So in this case, the police would be doing the bashing.
If it is private and not spreading harmful ideas, then it is fine.