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Unfortunately the internet is now the new 3rd space.
Religion advocated for bad policies in government which dug their own grave.
I don't feel bad they're closing down.
The internet isn't a third place! Not only do you have to pay to access it, but more importantly, it isn't a physical place. None of us are people here. We're strings of characters on a screen behind pseudo-anonymous handles. You can't help me, I can't help you.
This is not community. It can't be.
I think you're a person. You should be more kind to yourself. That kind of talk never gets us anywhere.
Not on the internet. I'm a string of characters. I don't have a face, I don't have a voice, I don't have a body, I am a handle and a comment tree. I cease to exist as soon as you aren't paying attention to this comment chain. I could be a bot, you have no idea.
The internet can never be community. We are only human when we do human things. This digital space isn't human at all.
Tell that to the numerous thriving online communities.
Like this one? You think this is community? You don't even know anyone's names.
I mean, does that matter that much? Your irl name is just an identifier that points to you. Just like queermunist is an identifier that also points to you.
I've seen you before, I've read some of your comments. I wouldn't say I know you per se, but I at least recognize your name in passing and have an inkling of what to expect from you.
You could almost think of it as we both go to the same school, but have different friend groups so maybe never really interact, but still know each other exists.
And some of the more prolific users I understand a bit more of. And some of the smaller communities I'm part of I know all of the regular users a little bit better.
But you're right, it's a bit harder than in person because you can't put a face or mannerisms to the handle, but I think you can still know people here a little bit.
Also, it seems weird that someone who is openly trans is complaining that we don't know people's names rather than us knowing the names people chose for themselves.
I'm fine with my real name, but if the world called me Flying Squid, I'd be cool with that too.
I mean, why are you even here then? Exchanging information IS a human thing, and we're (probably) all people behind the screens. I agree that physicality is a necessity for a 3rd space, but I disagree that it's necessary for community.
To say that we can't help people with our words strikes me as rather pessimistic.
~~I'm here for fun, not community. None of this shit matters. It's not real.~~
I don't know why I'm here. Just to get ganged up on and hurt myself.
i feel the downvotes kinda proved your point...
Bullshit. There are millions of communities on the internet. Maybe not the kind of communities you personally want, but communities just the same. Don't gatekeep how others interact with different social groups.
Also there are countless communities that exist both online and in meatspace. You can enjoy people in the real world, go home and resume those connections via internet with the same people. Those people don't cease to exist when they're not physically standing in front of you.
These are not just letters on a screen. They were put here by a human being named Kevin. I have an entire life, history, interpersonal connections, my own thoughts and feelings. Tomorrow you will likely see more things that I write along with everyone else who's part of This community.
There are no communities on the internet, there are ephemeral places where people go to waste time. That's it. That's what the loneliness epidemic is. People are killing themselves because the internet is not community and it can never be one.
Have you ever wondered why people on the internet are so nasty? It's because we can't actually see each other as people here. Yes, you assume every commenter is a person, but your subconscious can't see it. There's no face, no voice, no body, no presence, and its even worse with pseudo-anonymity. This isn't community. You don't even know my fucking name.
I have an entire life, history, interpersonal connections, my own thoughts and feelings and none of that is on the internet. Here I am a floating text box for you to yell at and talk down to, and for all you know I am a bot. You will never care about me or anyone else on a forum the way you will a real person, no matter how much you insist otherwise. You can't, because this isn't a community. We are all perfect strangers that are here to beat each other up for fun.
We can't help each other here. You have to log off.
You're projecting.
I actually fell in love with someone after dating in virtual reality during COVID. After several months she moved to my state, and we've been together for four years now. Seems pretty fuckin real to me.
I have met some of the closest friends I have ever had on the internet. There is a space on the internet I go to every day to interact with people who I am close with as people I grew up with. We've met up in person and were just as good friends.
I also have friends around the world I have spent years sharing my life with and theirs with me- photos, videos, things they've written or drawn, questions, deep conversations... and I've never met them in person. I have a dear friend in Turkey who I have known since the 1990s and we've never met. I love him like a brother because we've helped each other through so much even though we're on opposite sides of the planet.
You need to stop projecting your experiences on everyone else.
Sorry, Im pretty sure thats all were likely to get. The way things are going well be lucky to have public schools in 20 years, let alone a bunch of new publicly funded community spaces.
Another brilliant take from someone on .ml
A third place has nothing at all to do with what is and isn't paywalled. If I rented a Boeing 787 to take day trips with my friends every day for the next month, that'd still be a third place. It has everything to do with the first place being home and the second being work. It also has nothing, therefore, to do with "community" or "not community".
Even if we work under your (completely wrong) definition of third places as inherently fostering tight-knit community and not just being a place for you to exist around other people, smaller communities absolutely have the opportunity to do this. Roblox was one of my main third places when I was a kid, and it was a better third place than I could've had in real life. I met actual, real friends who I talked to daily for years and who accepted me. Right now I work on Wikipedia, which if you spend long enough there unambiguously has a community among the more experienced editors. I'm even in a Discord server where I joined for the project, ended up joining the team, and now feel like I'm good friends with the people there. Even Lemmy I'd say is small enough to start seeing a lot of familiar faces over time.
The Internet isn't inherently bad at fostering community. It's just that the modern Internet places a fuckload of emphasis on being in gigantic, uninteractive pools of people like Twitch chats that fly at a million miles a second and require you to spend $500 for a streamer to blink in your direction; a shitty short-form video service where you can comment and like but aren't seriously befriending anyone outside of extreme edge cases; a gigantic link aggregator where what you say is almost always drowned out immediately; multiplayer games that have new lobbies every match; etc.
I don't think the people you meet on Roblox or Wikipedia can be community the way a church can. Even if you want to force the definition of community to include ephemeral, non-physical, and paid places then you have to accept that a church fills a far different kind of communal void than the internet. People at your church can come to your house and help you do stuff. That's huge! You'd struggle to get any kind of real, tangible help from an internet place. Maybe some money, but that's it.
That just doesn't feel like community to me.
Real community is when people are in a cult whose authority figures systematically molest children. Got it.
Any other words of wisdom, oh one so ignorant of what a third place is?
I think it counts as a third place. All it really takes to be a third place is not being home or work. Whether physical or not is definitely debatable and I think physical third places are a must, but I don't think a third place being paid disqualifies it.
For one, a lot of folks don't have to pay for internet. I can go to my local library or community center and be online if needed. There are also some government programs that may provide free internet. But even if it is paid, typical third places have traditionally included settings like cafes, bars, the gym, bookstores, theaters, etc. which are also all pay-to-use environments.
Pay-to-use can not be the basis of community.
Why's that? Any enthusiast hobby is the basis of community, and that typically includes some degree of material investment into said hobby.
I used to take martial arts classes, which was a great way to meet new people. And we'd have opportunities to get together and meet outside of our regularly scheduled classes, but the unifier that brought everyone together was the class that we were each paying to attend.
I mean, even in the church example, you get guilted for not donating when they pass the collection box around. What difference is there with a community that shames you for not paying?
Unfortunately we have to pay monthly tribute to our landed lord to be in any community.
I know you're getting dragged in the comments / downvoted, but the premise that the internet is not a fully reasonable 'third' place has some rationality, as does the premise that churches have been this 'third' place for many. And I think 'third' places are where leftist community-engagement thrives, even in religous settings.
I mention leftist simply because many here are commenting from leftist Lemmy instances, myself included. Historically -- and for a moment, consider this outside the typically nonreligious, leftist approaches to community building -- churches have occupied a helpful, physical 'third' place like this for centuries.
When they are healthy, churches have been relationship hubs of solidarity and mutual aid. They have also been regularly used platforms from which to mobilize for social justice and collective action -- even today, I know of some churches that are engaged directly in social justice and collective action for queer communities, debt reduction / removal, resource sharing, and more. Liberation theology is gravely leftist, as well, and comes from Latin American churches with leftist clergy and non-clergy at the helm of both theory and praxis. The Civil Rights Movement was borne out of black American churches, and suffrage movements met in churchhouses as much as anywhere else. This list goes on.
Liberation / radical inclusivity activities can spring from any setting where people gather regularly and talk about change. While the internet can make that sometimes easier, it has been historically in-person, where folks gather, that these movements find momentum time and again. 'Third' places are historically and functionally physical.
Theory is great for the internet, and even some community-engagement through internet discussions on theory is great. Some, but not all.
Praxis happens offline, though, in anti-technofeudally controlled arenas.
I don't know how people can insist "the internet is a community!" then then use downvotes as if that shit isn't toxic to community.
Of course there are no people online. We're all dogs using the internet while the humans are at work.
Yall are dogs to right?
Welcome to the capitalist process of dematerialization, substituting a shitty simulacrum for an authentic experience. You want a nice meal? You get McDonalds. You want to have a sexual relationship? You get online porn. The real thing you thought you wanted has been transformed into a caricature, offering symbolic signifiers where there once was something real. And advertising trains you to believe the fake experience is the distilled essence of the real one.
Horkheimer, Adorno and Marcuse were writing about this as long ago as the late 1930s. Doctorow's rant about enshittification is a modern refinement of this sort of analysis (with less Marx).