There shouldn't be such thing as gender x only spaces. Or race, or sexuality. The women aren't wrong about their points, but that doesn't make it an acceptable or thankfully, legal thing to do. I'm sure the guy who sued them did it for all the wrong reasons though. Both sides seem a bit slimy.
this post was submitted on 07 May 2024
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I didn't read into this particular issue, but I know the museum in question, have been there a couple times, so some context:
- it was founded by some eccentric multi millionaire, who basically just does whatever he wants. The museum was originally free for everyone, until eventually he realised he was draining money really fast, so now it's only free for locals.
- the museum changes it's "theme" somewhat frequently. One time I was there the whole place looked like a grocery store, and the stairs to the actual museum was like hidden away in part of the store.
- the museum seems to thrive on getting strong reactions from people. Much of the art inside is quite shocking or provocative. They have an app where you can rate how much you like each artwork, and apparently they actively remove artworks which are too universally liked.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that the museum is trying to be women only, but I really doubt it will be permanent, and I suspect that the strong public reactions is exactly the point.
I kind of suspected this. Usually forseeble controversy like this is a ploy, especially with art and art spaces.
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You know who actually want women-only spaces?
Women.
Please share your mental gymnastics for how a rape survivor is supposed to feel safe in your space.
Sincerely, a rape survivor
What about a space for rape victims, male or female? Spaces for survivors of things, people dealing with things, etc. are fine, and if those things only touch women, it'll naturally only be women, or men who are (let's argue good faith, here) trying to support someone else. Rape isn't a female only problem, and so segregating it artificially may feel like a good idea at first glance, but creates other issues.
What about a space for black cop abuse survivors? I'd think that's pretty inappropriate. It'll already be mostly black, for sure, and a lot of that perspective will come through, but it's not a black only issue.
I think the intent behind a safe space is that it is separated from potential triggers. So people who were abused by a man may wish to be in a space with no men, since the sight of men might bring up past trauma. Same for people abused by women. Putting men and women together, even though they have all experienced abuse, may still be exposing them all to the same triggers they want to avoid.
Of course all these people have the same right to having safe spaces, but those spaces don't have to be in the same place.
But of course none of that really makes sense in a museum specialising on controversy
So we need a space for women abused by men, women abused by women, men abused by men, men abused by women, and people abused by mascots.
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Museums are usually pretty safe spaces. Sorry you went through that and that trauma is is with you.
I'm a man, and also a victim of sexual assault from a man.
This isn't the way.
Man I hate to say it but cutting off 50% of the population due to trauma is a tauma response and solely that.
Its horrible you ever had to go through that and not even knowing you personally if I had a time machine to help I would; but that was one bad person, not a bad populace.
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I'm all for segregation spaces as long as essential spaces are open to all such as hospitals, parks etc. There are women only gyms where I am and I used to go to them because I felt safer and more comfortable.
This is a slippery slope to things you wouldn't want to be excluded from, if this appeal wins and creates precident to make much worse places. Thinking this is a feminist battle is narrow minded, selfish, and will absolutely backfire.
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Next we can half separate but equal water fountains for coloreds and whites.
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So there shouldn't be girls' locker rooms either?
Why do we need girls locker rooms when we’ve had the technology for mixed gender locker rooms for generations? We call them doors and use them even in single gender bathrooms.
Certainly it’s inappropriate for sexual predators to be able to leer at girls or women, but there I also no need to have a lack of privacy from those of the same gender, if that’s what people wish.
Locker rooms are a little different than bathrooms.
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Got this one from tumblr but its something along the lines of we go to the bathroom to shit, not have some special women fun time in there.
If there was a way to have my own room entirely without anyone else that'd be 100% preferred, but gender is the last thing im thinking about when someone's peeking down the cracks of my stall
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Well isn't that about some hypocritical shit?!
From the article...
"The lounge, which contains some of the museum's most-acclaimed works - from Picasso to Sidney Nolan - has been closed to the public since the court's order."
Both Pablo Picasso and Sidney Nolan were both men!
If they're gonna play that 'women only' card, then they should remove all works created by men and move them to a proper open museum.
The amount of people/men who don't get it is astonishing. Art isn't just something you can put on a wall. This entire thing with excluding men is an art installation, supposed to generate emotions and a discussion about exclusion and gender disparity. And seeing how many men around the world are frothing at the mouth over an installation at a small museum at the end of the world it is an extremely powerful piece of art. I applaud the museum for this.
There are still places that are men only. Women can't join the freemasons for example, but you don't see this sort of extremely angry reaction to that.
And I agree, this art piece is doing exactly what it was supposed to.
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small museum at the end of the world
The end of the world is a fair description, but small is not. It is the largest privately funded museum in the Southern Hemisphere and has 6000m² (64583 ft²) of gallery space.
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You're doing the thing the artist intended lol
Point is, art is art, and a museum is a museum. Anyone mature enough should be allowed to enter any museum they want and view whatever exhibits they want.
That gender specific crap can and does end up going both ways. And it shouldn't be that way, anywhere.
In a world where there are millions of men who actually believe women are advantaged over men in today's society, it's interesting to see the international uproar occurring over this single exhibit that made that belief actually true. A single exhibit at a sex museum in Tasmania that's literally about gender discrimination.
A single exhibit at a sex museum in Tasmania
Small point of order: MONA, despite how it sounds when pronounced as an acronym, is not a sex museum. It's the Museum of Old and New Art. You may return to your debate.
Personally, I'm finding the whole thing delicious. As someone who went to university in a building where the post-graduate / staff floor didn't have a female bathroom - likely because when it was built women were only expected to clean and serve tea in that space - I appreciate the artist and museum setting official legal precedent around this topic. And doing so with panache.
I appreciate you! I've admittedly never been to MONA and just picked a word from the Wikipedia intro:
MONA houses ancient, modern and contemporary art from the David Walsh collection. Noted for its central themes of sex and death, the museum has been described by Walsh as a "subversive adult Disneyland".
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And I find this funny, but in the sad way ☹️
Folks trying to fight sexual discrimination with sexual discrimination... 🤦♂️
Those that dispute, fight and argue about such things that way don't even seem to realize that they're just contributing to the problem.
I just have to completely disagree. Art has consistently served to challenge the status quo and provoke thought and discussion, and this exhibit has absolutely excelled in that regard.
Now the artist is moving on to explore existing discrimination exemptions under the law in Tasmania:
In fact the Lounge already possesses many of the redeeming qualities listed in the verdict that would make it eligible for an exemption under section 27 of the Anti-Discrimination Act 1998 (Tas). Where it isn’t already eligible, a number of minor adjustments should bring us into compliance.
The law states that a person may discriminate on the ground of gender:
(a) in a religious institution, if it is required by the doctrines of the religion of the institution; or
(b) in education, if it is for the purpose of enrolment in one-gender schools or hostels; or
(c) in employment, if it is for the purpose of the residential care of persons under the age of 18 years; or
(d) in employment, if it is based on a genuine occupational qualification or requirement in relation to a particular position; or
(e) in accommodation, if it is shared accommodation for less than 5 adult persons; or
(f) in the provision or use of facilities, if those facilities are reasonably required for use by persons of one gender only.
Interviewer: You believe the artwork can continue to operate under a legal exemption? Which of these exemptions will apply?
All of them.
https://mona.net.au/blog/2024/05/interview-with-kirsha-kaechele-about-the-ladies-lounge
Quoting the law doesn't make the laws right in any regard. I'm pretty sure that if you asked Picasso, if he were alive of course, that he would heavily protest the discrimination and encourage anyone mature enough to view his works.
Same typically goes for almost any artist. They didn't go through the trouble of creating the art only to end up with others saying who does or doesn't get to view it.
Matter of fact, did Picasso or any of the other artists leave a will? Or for any of the artists that might still be alive or with living descendants, do they get a word in about it?
They should.
She's not saying the law is right...
Also Picasso was a renowned chauvinist and misogynist who had affairs with teenagers as a 70 year old and put out a cigarette on the cheek of the mother of two of his children
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If they're gonna play that 'women only' card, then they should remove all works created by men and move them to a proper open museum.
Why?
That was a sarcastic thought meant to make people think.
What they really should do is like not discriminate. It's a museum, every person mature enough, men and women, should be welcome to go view whatever artwork and exhibits they have.
Picasso was a massive misogynist, too. I haven't any idea who Nolan is.
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Whew, if the bear meme didn't bring out the usual crowd of assholes, this sure did.
It's honestly shocking how many people are missing the point.
They just need to read the article and it basically spells it out. The whole thing is meant to be shocking in order to draw attention to the stupid laws and get them fixed.
It's right there, both the motive and the solution.
At least with the bear it was less well documented and kinda took some background knowledge and extra thought to understand. But this one is just RIGHT THERE spelled out in the article 🤷
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Yup. Thousands of years of female exclusion - and it still continues in circles to this day, but one museum and now they're crying about basically re-excluding women from everything as a "thought exercise."
MONA is famous here for doing all sorts of controversial shit. This one time they sacrificed and butchered a cow live on stage. A women's only space is tame and on brand. Everyone's been baited
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This BBC World article covers how the artist brought the artwork into the courthouse:
Tuesday started with a large group of women dressed in navy power suits, clad in pearls and wearing red lipstick marching into the hearing to support Ms Kaechele.
As the parties sparred, the museum's supporters were somewhat stealing the spotlight. They had periods of complete stillness and silence, before moving in some kind of subtle, synchronised dance - crossing their legs and resting their heads on their fists, clutching their hearts, or peering down their spectacles. One even sat there pointedly flipping through feminist texts and making notes.
After (Judge) Grueber reserved his decision for a later date, which is yet to be determined, the museum's posse left as conspicuously as it came in - dancing out of the building in a conga line as one woman played 'Simply Irresistible' by Robert Palmer off her iPhone.
Ms Kaechele has indicated she'll fight the case all the way to the Supreme Court if needed, but she says - ironically - that perhaps nothing could drive the point of the artwork home more than having to shut it down.
"If you were just looking at it from an aesthetic standpoint, being forced to close would be pretty powerful."
Also want to cite an interview with the artist:
As the hugely influential gender theorist Judith Butler argues, gender is a performative construct. To which I’d add: so is the legal system.
Interviewer: Do you mean to say that you think the judge might have been contributing to the art?
I can’t be certain that his ruling isn’t performance. His judge-like ‘comportment’ in the court, the flourish of his language in the ruling ... He’s clearly a man interested in art. In his ruling, he compares me to Caravaggio—a great artist but he also murdered someone. I just served ladies champagne.
Was just saying how I wish there were women only gyms because I don't feel comfortable in coed gyms. Men are fucking creeps and do not respect personal space in my gym going experience. The reason there are no women only gyms in California is because men's rights groups sued them for discrimination. So basically there aren't any safe places to go to the gym for people like me.
edit: good to see the lack of reciprocity or willingness to look at this issue for what it actually is from certain instances.
Because that totally won't immediately be abused for transphobia. Like, I get the complaint, but think through the implications for five seconds
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Reverse misogyny? misandry is the word your looking for author.
All it takes is to dentify as a woman then you can go In, I don't get why people are complaining just tell them you're a woman and go in.
I kinda assumed the point was to demonstrate gender is meaningless, or are they excluding trans people and basing it on sex?
Gender may be a social construct, but I recognize that I'm privileged to not have to care too much about mine.
Now, the point of the exhibition was actually about historical men-only places where women experienced exclusion. The art is not only the exhibition itself, but also the sense of rejection that men feel in not being allowed in. I would be surprised if they didn't allow transwomen and non-binary folk in, as there are many spaces that don't welcome them even now.
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