this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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Imagine being such a persecuted group in America that you get to blast spam mail to everyone in your community in the name of religion with no repercussions.

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[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 79 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Dear Yvonne,

Thanks for reaching out with regards to the Bible. One quote I find particularly useful in situations like this which I believe you should take to heart is 1 Timothy 2:12:

"I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent."

Have a Blessed day!

gregorum

[–] T00l_shed@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

Damn, you beat me to it haha.

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Fwiw, 1 Timothy is widely recognized by scholars as a later forgery. So it's effective at shutting up literalists but not as much people who recognize the text as an at least partially flawed effort.

But that "shuddup women" stuff in the late first and early second century is pretty interesting.

Like you had Phillip the Evangelist's daughters supposedly prophesying, apocrypha where Jesus is privately teaching female students, with later traditions claiming their original teacher was a woman.

And then Corinth a decade or so after Paul deposed the appointed elders from Rome, and the bishop of Rome writes 1 Clement to them, which is all about how young people should defer to old and how awesome the biblical women who stayed silent were (presumably ignoring the earliest women who were driving tent pegs into the heads of dudes).

Suddenly after this schism and competing materials and tradition owing themselves to female teachers you have a forged letter about how women shouldn't teach.

It's a fun line from the Epistle to throw in their faces, but it obscures one of the more interesting and eyebrow raising episodes to the early church.

[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

The entire Bible is a lie. For you to argue that any part of it negate any other part of it just shows how much of it you’re taken by.

None of it was real. Wake up.

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

You might be surprised. There's a ton of BS, but the things it tried to cover up are actually pretty revealing.

For example, it talks about how one of the earliest leaders and prophets is a woman named 'bee' and in her song she talks about how the tribe of Dan "stayed on their ships."

Well just in the past ten years there's been a discovery of the only apiary in the region which was requeening their bees from Anatolia for centuries up until the period when Asa is supposedly deposing his grandmother the Queen Mother, when the apiary and only the apiary is burned to the ground.

Inside that apiary there's even a four horned altar to an unknown goddess - a feature that becomes a part of later Israelite shrines.

Just a few weeks ago there were articles about what's thought to be a very early Israelite graveyard where they were burning beeswax with a similar chemical profile to this apiary with the imported Anatolian bees and four horned altars.

Up in Anatolia was a tribe of sea peoples known as the Denyen, who an archeologist in the 50s thought might have been the lost tribe of Dan staying on their ships. And just in the past few years the lead excavator of Tel Dan was remarking that he might have been right given they found Aegean style pottery made with local clay in the early Iron Age layer.

There's quite a lot more to all this, but while none of it is straight up acknowledged in the Bible, there's very valuable evidence of it having been covered up and rewritten in the Bible.

Just because you don't like the current version of royal propaganda doesn't mean there aren't earlier layers beneath what's presented that have value in being learned about and analyzed, particularly for history buffs.

As the science historian John Helibron said, "The myth you slay today may contain a truth you need tomorrow."

[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You’re welcome to post links to your sources. Credible sources.

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)
[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

None of this prove that the myths in the Bible are real, lol

All the “possiblys” and “could bes” and “suggests”…

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (11 children)

There's a difference between the supernatural component of mythologized history and the historical components being false.

Do you also think that 100% of the Iliad and Odyssey are false just because the stuff about Zeus is? That the ruins of Troy in Turkey aren't really Troy? That there was no catalogue of ships of the Mycenaean fleet conquering a foothold in Anatolia? That there was no one day battle with Egypt where Aegean commanders were taken captive?

If not, what about the Bible makes it uniquely 100% false to your discerning eye?

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

But that “shuddup women” stuff in the late first and early second century is pretty interesting.

The apocryphal Gospel of Thomas (not to be confused with the also apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas) which is dated to the second century is so anti-women that it ends with Jesus basically saying that women who worship him will be turned into men so they can enjoy the afterlife.

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Not exactly. The last saying is widely recognized as a later addition, and you can recognize that it is because it used Matthew's "Kingdom of heaven" phrasing instead of the more common Thomasine "kingdom of the Father" or just 'kingdom.'

But you have earlier sayings like 21 where Jesus is shit taking the male disciples to Mary or saying 61 where Salome is declared as a disciple. And saying 22 has a very different perspective on gender from that last saying: "...when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female... then you will enter [the kingdom]." The latter phrasing is also echoed in Galatians 4 and the lost Gospel of the Egyptians.

Also, the only recorded group following the text (the Naassenes), who were also following the lost Gospel of the Egyptians, claimed their tradition originated with a woman named Mary.

The problem is the only surviving version of that text we have in full was one buried in a jar in the 3rd century CE, and the extant version is so late that it's even combining its own sayings, such as 110 combining the adjacent but very different sayings of 80 and 81. The addition at the end was probably from a point in time where the prominent role of women in the tradition had to be explained away in an era of increased Christian misogyny (likely from the very efforts I was just talking about). Much like how the association with 'Thomas' was probably a second century addition to the text after the core philosophy of a dualist reality was anthropomorphized as an apostle to doubt the physical resurrection in John just as the proto-Thomasine sect in Corinth was doing in 1 Cor 15 (with significant details in common with the much later Naassenes, such as the first and last Adam).

Also, FYI, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is probably a satire. How many kids in a Jewish town in Galilee do you think were supposedly falling off roofs to be lifted back up who were also named after the Greek philosopher known for his paradoxes of motion?

You basically had a very philosophical text with the core of the Gospel of Thomas using Platonism as a response to Epicureanism, and then around the second century when the canonical gospels are including miraculous infancy narratives the group that denied the physical resurrection as preposterous writes a text with a tyrannical magic child smiting and resurrecting people left and right, credited to "Thomas the philosopher" that's including a philosophy joke about Zeno? It's making fun of the infancy narratives. Which is what makes it so much funnier that the actual Gospel of Thomas doesn't survive the church's filter except for said jar, but the Infancy narrative actually totally does survive and has monks copying and preserving it because they take it at face value as claiming he was resurrecting people and not as something that needed to be banned.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 36 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Dear Yvonne,

Thank you for writing me and sharing what you claim to be valuable information, but I am not finding it all that valuable considering it's a single line from your Bible telling me that an omniscient being can hear me. And I should think so too.

To answer your first question, I do not think any god listens to my prayers because I do not pray. Your second question makes no grammatical sense. I'm sorry, but I can't answer it. Perhaps you should see if your god will grant you a better command of the English language.

I won't be contacting you for your free Bible study, because I have never heard of Bible study that charges you money... So this kind of feels like a scam. Are you selling timeshares?

Sincerely,

Flying Squid

[–] ChillPenguin@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

I was expecting something about my cars extended warranty at the bottom.

[–] RGB3x3@lemmy.world 22 points 10 months ago

Seriously, religion is a mental illness.

There's a dude where I live that stands on a street corner reading the Bible out loud to nobody.

These people need therapy and medication.

[–] not_woody_shaw@lemmy.world 22 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Awww, she's blissed out. So cute. I wish they were all as harmless as her.

[–] ChillPenguin@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago

That's a good point. It definitely can be worse.

[–] ChillPenguin@lemmy.world 16 points 10 months ago

Fuck off Yvonne

[–] BreadstickNinja@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago

You should offer her a free punctuation class in return.

[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 14 points 10 months ago

Call "Yvonne" with your number withheld, and tell her that you don't want to receive anymore of those flyers. If she asks for your address, tell her to pray for an answer and hang up.

[–] skittlebrau@lemmy.world 14 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Respond back that you prayed to win the lottery and you actually did. Watch the mental gymnastics in full force after that.

[–] venoft@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

Respond that Allah is generally more giving and watch the face contort.

[–] NucleusAdumbens@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Then sell your system as a class at $1k/ticket, and before you know it you're the next big prosperity gospel leader

[–] Timecircleline@sh.itjust.works 11 points 10 months ago

A tree died for this.

[–] apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago

I get these too. It is best to ignore them because if you tell them you are anything but a Jehovah's Witness, they will hit you stronger with letters. Return to sender will reenforce their desire to send you more too.

I know some people say to tell them some secret words about people getting kicked out of the Jehovah's, but I find it hard to be mean to them. They are being coerced and guilted into it.

[–] Randelung@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago

It's so absurd. If you read these without knowing anything about a "bible" or a "John" it's just rambling with an old timey accent.

[–] PapaStevesy@midwest.social 9 points 10 months ago

"Pray and, if it's something god already wanted to happen, god will grant your prayers!"

[–] T00l_shed@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago
[–] mechoman444@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Ok, how about this. If God answers my prayers and allows me to win the lottery I pledge 50% of my winnings to a church of his choosing.

From what I understand God really, really needs money.

[–] Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

It only works if you ask for vague, non-specific things. For example, if you ask for patience, then feel more patient... that's God! But if you feel more frustrated and less patient, that's also God... teaching you patience by making life suck so you have to be more patient. And if nothing changes? You guessed it; God!

[–] GrundlButter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Was it sent to you via USPS including a stamp, or was it just put in your mailbox? Cause if they bypass USPS and use your mailbox inappropriately they can be fined per offense.

[–] ChillPenguin@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Uhh, I don't remember. All I did was take a picture of the letter and thought this instance would want to see it haha. Threw away the envelope.

[–] GrundlButter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 10 months ago

Haha. In all likelihood, it was probably sent via mail appropriately. But, if anyone ever does go mucking with your mailbox you have some real options.

[–] almar_quigley@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Woah, I’ve received two very similar letters as well. They came from a state that’s really far away so I’m not sure how they even got my name and address. Super concerning but also laughable that this was seen as a way to convert people….

[–] angrynomad@infosec.pub 3 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Imagine being so petty you post this online. Just throw it out if you're that pathetic and can't handle others differences

[–] HAL_9_TRILLION@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 10 months ago

Imagine defending a cult that protects child predators, will let its babies die before giving them a life-saving medical procedure, and drives members who quit to suicide by forcing everyone they ever knew to shun them.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 9 points 10 months ago

Spam apologists are neat. It's like they're so new to the Internet they don't know that a "it's just one message calm down" attitude is how we got here.

[–] ChillPenguin@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

I had never seen this happen before. Relax.

[–] dog_@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Return to sender.

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