this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2024
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[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 108 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (28 children)

Germany equating its historic debt to Jewish people with support for a particular state is an absolutely disgusting distortion of the German obligation of remembrance.

Just like this, they throw under the bus any anti-Zionist Jew.

Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Stay the fuck out of it. Say the honorable thing that you will abide by the rulings of international courts. Provide humanitarian aid, help refugees and displaced people. Be a ray of light and humanity, not a stickler for rules and definitions. Don't be so goddamn fucking German for a change.

[–] smiletolerantly@awful.systems 38 points 9 months ago (6 children)

What this person said.

~ sincerely, a German

(Seriously though, the situation here is intense. Our minister of education is currently under pressure to resign by the scientific community (which she refuses to do) because her ministry was looking for ways to defund / revoke grants to 400 university researchers who had criticized the way in which a pro-Palestinian protest was handled. That's all it takes.)

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[–] jeena@piefed.jeena.net 96 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)
[–] Humanius@lemmy.world 48 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

The German state doesn't recognise Palestine as a state currently, so probably not.
Only a few countries west of the former Iron Curtain recognise Palestine (Iceland and Sweden, and as of this year Norway, Ireland, and Spain)

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[–] KLISHDFSDF@lemmy.ml 72 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Germany, there's a time and place for everything. This is like supporting a "sovereign citizen's " right to freedom during a murderous rampage. It's giving "blue lives matter" during George Floyd's murder.

[–] Franconian_Nomad@feddit.de 23 points 9 months ago (9 children)

Since many anti-semites use the current actions of Israel for, well for antisemitism, it’s the perfect time for it.

The right to exist has nothing to do with the actions of the current government.

Since what happened during the nazi regime, you surely can understand why Germany asks this question, don’t you?

[–] abracaDavid@lemmy.today 35 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Is the antisemitism in the room with us right now?

Cause it seems an awful lot to me like y'all are just calling anyone protesting what Israel is doing to Palestine antisemitic.

[–] Franconian_Nomad@feddit.de 16 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Im german. I’ve seen it. I’ve heard it. I’ve seen it in the news. It’s more subdued than racism, at least were I live. But it’s there.

And by the way, I’m against the current government in Israel and its actions and i think those responsible should be held accountable before an international court.

[–] footoro@sh.itjust.works 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

All I see in the news is German police beating up pro-Palestine protestors and politicians trying to silence everyone who is pro-Palestine. Even worse trying to cut funding for researchers who speak out against police brutality against peaceful protestors inside universities. Never again for Germans equals never again Jewish people and apparently nothing more.

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[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The antisemitism is the linking of a specific nation state and its disgusting actions to an entire ethnicity even when members of that ethnicity very overtly and explicitly disavow that link.

Germany's actions have all the hallmarks of German "tradition": assuming that Jews are all the same, telling Jews what Jewishness is, implying there are good Jews (who follow Germany's definition of Jewishness) and bad Jews (who don't).

Clearly Nazi thinking was never eliminated amongst the German elites, it just got its lists of "good races" and "bad races" updated.

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[–] ad_on_is@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago (11 children)

This is like a serial-killer, becoming a lawyer and fighting against death-penalty of other serial-killers.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 67 points 9 months ago (2 children)

The new Nazis and the old Nazis teaming up is a sight to behold.

[–] snooggums@midwest.social 23 points 9 months ago (16 children)

Acknowledging a country's right to exist is the opposite of Nazi policy...

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 43 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Maintaining that an Apartheid state has the right to keep being an Apartheid state is very Nazi-like.

[–] dogslayeggs@lemmy.world 16 points 9 months ago (3 children)

This is not agreeing that Israel is allowed to continue committing genocide. This is just saying that country is allowed to exist as a country. Or do you think that once a country commits a horrific act that they should no longer be allowed to exist?

[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 24 points 9 months ago (15 children)

I'm more interested in the inverse: when does colonizing an already-inhabited area turn into a recognized country? Because Israel was created by a stroke of the pen out of Palestinian land. Or is it purely "might makes right"?

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[–] snooggums@midwest.social 12 points 9 months ago (23 children)

A country being shitty doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. Does Russia not have a right to exist? Did Iraq not have a right to exist?

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 12 points 9 months ago

Countries, as a rule, don't have a right to exist. People have a right to self-determination. These are different things. That said, Israel is fundamentally an Apartheid state. If Israel stopped being an Apartheid state it'd stop being Israel. And if a state needs to treat half the people in it as second class citizens to exist then it can go die in a ditch.

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[–] pivot_root@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago

If you have 11 people and a Nazi at a dinner party, you have 12 Nazis.

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[–] dogslayeggs@lemmy.world 13 points 9 months ago (4 children)

So let me get your stance correct: you think that because Israel is currently committing genocide that they don't have the right to exist as a country?

[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 29 points 9 months ago (10 children)

Answering this question would have impact on my ability to acquire German citizenship.

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[–] ad_on_is@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago (2 children)

the thing is, why the fuck do I have to answer questions about Israel, China, Uganda, or Madagascar or any country, other than Germany, when applying for a German citizenship? That's absurd!

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[–] ThePyroPython@lemmy.world 45 points 9 months ago

How about affirming the two-state solution. You know, the one that everyone sensible has been pushing for to resolve this conflict.

[–] STUPIDVIPGUY@lemmy.world 35 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Wow, so all the jews have to do is start genociding, and all of a sudden Germany realizes, 'hey these guys aren't so bad after all!'

[–] holycrap@lemm.ee 15 points 9 months ago

It's not the jews. It's zionists who would love to make those synonymous.

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[–] Franconian_Nomad@feddit.de 28 points 9 months ago (6 children)

Alright, lets wrap that up, shall we.

After looking at OPs comments and discussing with him it’s clear to me that he posted this article with a clear agenda.

If Israel’s right to exist is a controversial topic, I‘m out.

I have the opinion that it’s not antisemitism to call out an evil government and protest against its actions.

Getting flustered about Germany saying Israel has a right to exist and not understanding historical reasons why that is the case is just naivety I hope.

[–] ralphio@lemmy.world 32 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Bit of a double standard though, right? They don't have to affirm Palestinian's right to statehood. If not saying Israel is a legitimate state is anti-semitism, wouldn't that make the same stance toward Palestine islamaphobia?

[–] Franconian_Nomad@feddit.de 17 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Yes. It’s a Double standard. It was born out of history. Namely the genocide on the Jews by the nationalsocialists.

Germany doesn’t have a special history with Palestine, so they don’t get mentioned.

And yes, I think Germany should recognise a Palestinian state.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 19 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (15 children)

What does israel have to do with anti-semitsm?

You keep intentionally conflating Judaism and Zionism after been corrected.

Furthermore you don't appear to know the history of israel. Zionists had been colonizing Palestine years before Hitler came to power.

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[–] yesman@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

If Israel’s right to exist is a controversial topic, I‘m out.

Fuck me, they're arguing States rights. Is there a playbook for this atrocity denial or what?

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[–] SulaymanF@lemmy.world 28 points 9 months ago (8 children)

This is idiotic. Gandhi hated that Pakistan split off and said that he recognized their existence but would never recognize their “right” to exist.

That’s not even an international policy. Does Castile have a right to exist? Does Kashmir? Does Kurdistan? Why doesn’t Germany demand the same for others?

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[–] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 20 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Exist? Okay sure, why not.

Bomb a Population to a pulp? FUCK NO!

And thats why I will NEVER vote for any of these fucks again! My Party won't make it into the Bundestag? I DON'T CARE! Because the other Party's won't represent me anyway, so I can easily vote for my small Party which at least represents me!

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[–] rxbudian@lemmy.ca 19 points 9 months ago (2 children)

What happens if they affirmed that both Israel and Palestine's right to exist?

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[–] febra@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago (1 children)

As of today they’re also expanding deportations. If you are caught using banned slogans on social media such as from the river to the sea and you’re a foreigner you will get deported for “praising terrorism”. Some politicians argue that even as much as a like will be enough for the authorities to throw you out of the country.

And if you have double citizenship and you got your German one as of this year, they will be able to cancel your citizenship if you’re ever convicted of questioning Israel’s right to exist.

[–] Landslide7648@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 9 months ago (18 children)

Nope, not true. Stop spreading misinformation just because you want to get public praise.

You will not automatically get deported, but it will be made easier to deport foreigners who are praising terrorism. There’s a big difference. You always have legal recourse against this.

That’s important because the phrase “from the river to the sea” is not illegal praise of terrorism in Germany, even if you may have heard so from your equally misinformed bubble. While its use shows that the person saying has a big problem with accepting that a complex situation will certainly not be reflected in a catchy sentence, and that it may be time for that person to just excuse them from a discussion they are very likely not a part of, it is not illegal.

Why? Because courts will have to make the decision whether its use in a specific context was illegal, and more often than not it won’t be.

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[–] ghostdoggtv@lemmy.world 18 points 9 months ago

Israel can have the Gaza strip if Palestine gets to take control of the rest of Israel. Problem solved.

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