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202

El Salvador closes 2024 with a record low number of homicides (abcnews.go.com)

submitted 4 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

61 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Summary

El Salvador ended 2024 with a record low 114 homicides, equivalent to 1.9 per 100,000 people, making it the safest country in the Western Hemisphere according to President Nayib Bukele.

The drop follows two years under a state of emergency aimed at eradicating gang violence, granting authorities sweeping powers but limiting civil rights.

Over 83,000 arrests have been made, though 354 detainees reportedly died in custody.

While criticized for human rights violations, Bukele's crackdown has drastically improved security, boosting his popularity.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Easy when you toss people into a pit without due process. I wonder what the percentage is of innocent people rotting in those inhumane prisons they built. Not to mention that those prisons and form of justice will eventually be turned towards the next batch of "undesirables" in no time. Including his political opponents. This president can wear a backwards hat and act like he's a man of the people, but he's a wealthy nepo oligarch.

Edit: you're a fool if you think this guy isn't hiding the real numbers

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

He could be hiding the numbers, but the drop is near an order of magnitude from the peak.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Killings by police officers per 10 million population:

United Kingdom - 0.5
France - 5.5
Canada - 18.6
United States - 33
El Salvador - 1703.8

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_rates_and_counts_for_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

El Salvador: 1829.9

That's number is Venezuela's. El Salvador is 1703.8. Note the data is from 2017, 2 years before Bukele became president.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Thank you for the correction, much appreciated.

And yes, I am aware that it's older data, but given that Bukele's moves as president have consisted entirely of even harsher policing, I sincerely doubt that that number has gone lower.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (6 children)

Could it be that that number came from active warfare with the gangs (which have now been neutered)?

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Afaik the USA does not release official statistics for this because individual police precincts refuse to cooperate.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Oh brother... so, what do you suggest? Go back to the old ways? How about we ask the majority of Salvadorians what they think?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

"How about we ask the majority of Salvadorians what they think?"

When you say "the majority of Salvadorioans" are you including those who are currently imprisoned? If not, then it’s just a matter of imprisoning everyone who disagrees with those in charge…

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 4 months ago (1 children)

On the one hand, Bukele is basically installing an authoritarian dictatorship here, so can we even trust these numbers? And the real big fish criminals are probably in cahoots with the regime. And of course people are getting eaten up by an inhumane, classist system that is producing a lost generation. So fuck all that.

On the other hand however, the previous situation was indeed unlivable. It was like living in the purge every day, with people living under the thumb of petty gangsters. And I'm really struggling to come up with an example of a nation coming back from this kind of collapse without some kind of Terror, in the Jacobin sense.

Like, sometimes a state of exception, a state of emergency is actually justified, and the state needs to re-establish the monopoly on violence. If Claudia Sheinbaum went Bukele against the Cartels in the north for example, would she really not be justified?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago (1 children)

definitely numbers to take with a grain of salt. but by accounts from people living there, the difference is noticable even if it's not as high as what the government says. even tourism has had a huge uptick because people actually feel pretty safe going there now.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

You can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

you can't make a tomlette without cracking a few Greggs

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 4 months ago (1 children)

In case you were wondering like I was:

A new report from the FBI shows that the U.S. homicide rate has come down from its pandemic peak. In 2022, the government agency counted 6.3 homicides per 100,000 of U.S. population, down from 6.8 in 2021 - the equivalent of a fall of around 6 percent.

https://www.statista.com/chart/31062/us-homicide-rate/

I live in a fucking third world country. Hopefully not for much longer.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

By definition, if you live in the US, you live a country from the "first world" bloc (ie. The western bloc)

Please stop using the term "third world" to mean poor country

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Seems like an insulting term is the perfect one to use for America.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Just say shithole.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

Not when it's factually incorrect. There's plenty of things wrong with America, no need to call it something it isn't.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 4 months ago (1 children)

All Salvadorians I hear from say they are happy with the situation.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Selection bias no? You’re not exactly going to hear from the innocent person stuck in a jail without representation or due process.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

Can't really fault them. Not like it was the safest place to live before he became dictator

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Please, tell us all how El Salvador should do it? Go back to the old ways?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

"security", as long as you won't get arrested and imprisoned without a trial, because of a vague suspicion because you entered a shop which got robbed 3 hours ago and you just came there to buy some cheese. Ah well, better 10 innocent imprisoned than 1 guilty in the streets, right? Oh no, it's El Salvador, Better 100 innocent imprisoned than 1 guilty in the street. Better safe then sorry!

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

So, go back to how it was before? Is that what you're saying? There's either this way, or the way it was before. Ask the people of El Salvador what they prefer.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I wonder if this is a bit of a false dichotomy. I don’t think you’ll find anybody that wants it “back how it was before”, but rather how it is going now but without all the collateral damage and arrests of innocent people.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Good.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Say that to the innocents in those prisons without due process

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 months ago (2 children)

While there are no doubt some innocents who got caught up; it has been shown time and again that the fastest and most efficient way to deal with wide spread gangs that have essentially taken over a country is massive arrests of anyone even remotely related to them.

It can turn violence filled hell-holes into safe communities within months, and the people know it. There's a reason Argentinians and El Salvadorians have massive approval for their government right now; because it worked. People are free to walk on the street without fear of getting shot. For those who lived in fear for so long, a few false positives is a small price to pay for locking up practically every criminal overnight.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

While there are no doubt some innocents who got caught up

This ends all my support for his mode and efforts. Even a single innocent is beyond unacceptable and proof your system is fucked.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 months ago (2 children)

You're saying this from the luxury of a stable country. If the same thing were tried where you live, it would be horrific and wrong, because those actions aren't warranted in a stable country. They only become acceptable when crime and violence have become so deeply rooted that it's impossible to tackle them with normal means.

Imagine late stage cancer. It's beyond the ability to get out with surgery. Instead, more drastic measures are required such as chemo or radiation therapy. This kills the cancer, but also kills some surrounding cells. It's necessarily destructive because the cancer has spread too far to fix with less invasive measures. Imagine someone dismissing those treatments as barbaric because "even a single non-cancerous cell dying is unacceptable". Meanwhile the person dying from cancer doesn't really give a shit, they just want to be free from cancer.

You don't have a single clue how bad things were in those countries before. You didn't go outside, even in the daytime. Nearly every business was held hostage by gangs. Seeing dead bodies was a common occurrence. If you got robbed, or raped, or killed, too bad; there was essentially zero justice to be found or had. For those living under those conditions for years, the price for safety is well worth it.

You're opposed because of the innocents who might be in jail? Where is your concern for the innocents just outright murdered due to unchecked crime?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

You’re saying this from the luxury of not an over crowded cell because all you did was be outside at the time a government truck pulled over and abducted a group of random people at gun point.

Yes it sounds great to say things when you’re not the one suffering the consequences.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

If the same thing were tried where you live, it would be horrific and wrong

USA is among the states with highest proportion of people in cages. El Salvador has only doubled the USA numbers. In both cases, yes, it's horrific and wrong.

Also the argument that extreme oppression is ok for others but not for "us" is grossly overprivileged.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago

Arguably a false positive prison rate that is lower than the old innocent murder victim rate is still a net improvement. No system is perfect, and even inaction has an associated cost.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

What if more innocents would be suffering worse fates had the government not stepped in with their current tactics?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Whatever comforts you

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

Yes, terrible oppression is most often based on imaginary arguments.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

"Few"? You actually have nothing to back that up. Nothing. You have no idea if 1% or 5% or 10% or 50% or 80% are innocent. No idea. The police has no idea. Nobody has any idea and nobody seems to care.

The state eats up anyone who has a gang "vibe" (ie is a working class young man) without even a plan for some eventual trial and due process.

And yes, Terror has results here, but Bukele has not described what an exit from the state of exception will look like. Will there be actual trials in half a year, in 10 years? Nobody knows. Just praise the dear leader.

Once state monopoly in violence has been re-established, you need to re-establish rule of law, otherwise you've just replaced tyranny by gangs with tyranny by the state.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

What do you think should have been done instead?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

As much as I feel for innocent's, the situation in El Salvador was bad: https://images.app.goo.gl/WWrXq7TXQWvqnuaV8

I feel like as harsh and authoritarian as Bulakes plan has been - ignoring mass violence on your people impacts a much greater magnitude of innocenta

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Gotta raise up education and society at large though, can't just toss everyone in jail

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

Only people on the Left, hardcore liberals are complaining about the job he's doing. Because you know, low life scum criminals deserve to be treated with dignity.

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