this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2025
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The absurdity of the proposal is already in the title, and shows how motonormativity is spread all over the world.

Berlin has a very good public transit system, and a few 30 km/h zones cannot be that bad.

I would love to hear opinions from someone who lives there!

crossposted from: https://mastodon.uno/users/rivoluzioneurbanamobilita/statuses/114732266280428499

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[–] [email protected] 111 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Conservatives won the last election in Berlin in case you were wondering.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

They didn't win really. There was a coalition of the "Social Democrats", Greens and Left. Because the "Social Democrats" are utterly incompetent, the state election had to be repeated because they fucked up the election process.

In the repeated election the Greens and Left had about the same votes and the "Social Democrats" lost hard. Still the coalition maintained a majority and could have continued. Instead the "Social Democrats" betrayed the coalition, claimed the election was a "clear signal against it" and became the smaller partner to the nationalist Berlin CDU, who campaigned on the notion that your surname shows whether you are a "real" German or merely a German citizen.

It is the classical liberals backstabbing progressives to embrace right/far-right politics move.

Now this current government has set out to destroy every achievement of the old government while ignoring the grave issues with housing, infrastructure, social security, climate mitigation...

Now of course after two years of that, the current government is deeply unpopular, but such is the cycle of Berlin. Have a reasonable government manage somewhat, then people elect the reactionaries, believing they would "fix" things only to fuck everything up more and have the progressive government after try to pull the cart out of the ~~dirt~~ sinkhole.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

such is the cycle of ~~Berlin~~ every democracy ever

FTFY

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

So lets go ahead and conserve destructive policies.

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[–] [email protected] 85 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Yep sounds absurd. As I unterstand it the problem is that you need a reason for 30 km/h zones. The reason was the air quality which is now better so there is no reason anymore. Some zones may be kept because the streets are used by school kids.

I think this is still absurd and good 30 km/h zones with synced traffic lights can yield a good traffic flow.

[–] [email protected] 49 points 1 week ago (6 children)

The fact that they have improved air quality is not sufficient reason? Do they think air quality is like painting a house, that it only has to be done every couple of years?

[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I can't speak to Germany specifically, but a lot of people don't think very much at all. They feel things, and make up words to justify their feelings. (We all do this to some extent, but for some people it seems like that's the only process running)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

lot of people don’t think very much at all. They feel things, and make up words to justify their feelings

Right... and now they have magical eightballs that can justify with plausible sounding strings of words (LLMs) any feeling they might have.

We're doing great as a species! /s

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 week ago

Welcome to Germany, land of the pedantry-industrial complex.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

They have a new conservative government in Berlin which wants to end "the war against cars" and rolls every progress back. They also remove bike lanes "because they cost parking spaces"

It doesn't make sense, they are conservatives after all

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

I wonder why conservatives are so retarded, in each country.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I am totaly with you on that. That fact that those zones did improve the air quality would be a reason for me to keep them.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

So i guess you just want children to grow up with their lungs being coddled?

You want a whole generation to be weak?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

I think you are missunderstanding me. I am totally for 30 km/h zones! What I said above is a official rule for where you can establish 30 km/h zones.

Is it a dumb rule: yes!

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

Clean air makes weak men. Asthma is strength.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

It's Germany, if air quality is not in the pre-approved list of reasons, then it's not acceptable.

But don't worry, once they repair the fax machine they can start processing the request to update the list. In about 7 years it'll be done. Well unless the administration is voted out then the new one might forget about it.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 week ago (4 children)

The air is better, but if we keep not ruining it, it will be too good.

Then the lungs of our children will grow weak.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The children will not be ready for the mines then.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

Exactly! They shall be as coal and as bellows in our furnaces!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

You dont get it, bad air quality creates strong lungs, strong lungs creates good air quality, good air quality creates weak lungs, weak lungs create bad air quality. /s

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

That is the reason they used to create them, but municipalities do have the right to create 30km/h zones in any residential area they choose, as long as it is not a major road.

[–] [email protected] 67 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Let's bring back CFCs. The ozone layer has recovered, so it's fine.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It hasnt it will take another 60 years to fully recover

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

ozone recovers

but the planet is now too warm to live

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago

Don't give them ideas, they already want to bring back asbestos.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Can't wait for these useless assholes to be voted out next year

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Shit, I laughed out loud here. This is some The Onion shit

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

If the Onion is not out of business yet, it will be soon. Reality is more ridiculous than what they can come up with...

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 week ago (7 children)

motonormativity

I like the new slur!

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago (1 children)

My small town in the UK was going to be a pilot for a blanket 20mph speed limit.

This was interpreted by the local Insane People Facebook group as being woke, a war on motorists, a New World Order 15 Minute Cities scheme and a Chinese style program to prevent people going anywhere.

They then voted in a Reform Party local council, who promptly delivered on their promises to cut waste and loss DOGE style, by closing a local community centre...

Now the Insane People Facebook page is demanding to know why Labour has closed it. 🤡

The mad thing is, it's practically impossible to drive at more than 20mph anyway due to all the potholes. We're apparently twinned with the surface of the moon.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (3 children)

That's something I noticed in the last two weeks that I spent in the UK. You simply cannot reach the speed limit. If you actually drive through a normal UK city at the given speed limits, you'll lose your dentures or your teeth, and/or your car.

I was sent by my GPS on a "road" that was about as wide as my car. Left and right it was greens, more than a mans height, and the "road" zig-zagged through nowhere. You had to drive at walking speed around the corners, as there was traffic in both directions. Official speed limit: 50mph / 80km/h

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

There's a reason it is like that in most of the world, and it is rather stupid. Speed limits are calculated, not mandated.

Transit authorities record the average speed of drivers in an unmarked stretch of road. Then the speed limit is that average plus some number chosen by local authorities, rounded up. Then the government go ahead and say, "if it is not measured, it is 50". And you end up with ridiculous numbers all over the place.

That's why people say that to limit speed you have to build for the speed desired. Ordering a speed limits lower than the one people do spontaneously, without changing road geometry, doesn't reduce the overall speed of traffic. It just increases the number of infractions, a common police funding strategy.

The most successful speed limit projects include infrastructure budgets to change the roads.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yeah, plenty of those about. Have fun getting past that caravan, only to find a tractor in front of it, or one of the locals in a Range Rover two inches from your back bumper who is annoyed that you're not flying around a blind bend at the speed limit.

I like the 60mph roads with the nice dry stone walls alongside. A guy I work with hit one a few winters back. It bit into his bumper and spun him like a top. Those things were built to last.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 week ago (1 children)

This could be a great example of the "mental fenze" cognitive model. We remove things without understanding why were there in the first place

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Seriously.

Case in point, I had a student once who had a note on file to watch for seizures. Me and other teachers/staff were puzzled as this student didn’t have this worry of seizures the years before — turns out the children’s home they were housed at took them OFF the anti-seizure medication they were on, noting that the student didn’t need the medicine anymore as they were not showing signs of seizures. WTF?!

Sorry to spew political rhetoric like vomit everywhere, but this reminds me of the same self-inflicted idiocy of trump and his cultists.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

To be honest, anti-seizure medication has significant side effects, maybe they were hoping the seizures were gone so they could stop needing the medication

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago

CDU never changes with their stupidity

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Was in Berlin last week and it was like an island of transit infrastructure in the sea of delayed S-Bahn and long/mid distance travel that is Germany. S-Bahn, Trams, Busses, U-Bahn, and it's all frequent and not undersized!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

This. It devinetively took some time to adjust to just going to the next station waiting a few minutes and then driving where you want to. Driving a car in Berlin is borderline stupidity. The public transit is literally insane.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

Die Freiluftirrenanstalt Berlin

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (6 children)

I don't really understand this. Air quality is not affected if it's electric cars. If it's about ICE cars - then, in general, efficiency goes up till ~90km/h.

I feel like the limit was lowered for a fake reason and is now suggested to be brought back up for a bad one.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The evidence of studies says that you are wrong.

Here are some key points from a study summary that was made for London: 20mph zones do not appear to worsen air quality and they dramatically reduce road danger. They also support a shift to walking and cycling, generate less traffic noise and reduce community severance. In 20mph zones vehicles move more smoothly with fewer accelerations and decelerations. This driving style produces fewer particulate emissions.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/speed-emissions-and-health.pdf

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Fair enough on the part in bold.

As someone who lives in London, I can say it does come with a caveat - traffic system here are set up by chimpanzees. It makes no sense, none of the three groups - pedestrians, cyclists or drivers - get prioritised. None of the lights are interconnected, so all they bring is annoyance for everyone. I'm an occasional pedestrian, cycling commuter and a (mostly) weekend driver.

TLDR - no wonder the study found that.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

The article/slideshow I linked is not a specific scientific study that was done in London, it's a summary/aggregate of other studies that are referenced at the end of the slideshow. It was a study summary made for London, but the science behind it is a lot more general.

I'm from Belgium and from my own personal experience, I find that well done low speed zones really do improve the flow of traffic. Cities in the Netherlands have been at it for probably over 2 decades, Antwerp has followed their example since about a decade and now other cities in Flanders are copying Antwerp's homework. When done well, it works really well and almost noone wants to go back to how it used to be. You're right in that coordinated traffic lights are a big part of why the traffic flows much better, but in congested streets, a lower speed is needed to keep that flow going.

In Belgium we also have a big example of how to not do street renewal/traffic improvement programs: Brussels.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Lower speeds reduce road danger

Are extra casualties and reduced freedom for people who aren't driving worth the few minutes saved for a minority of people?

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

Tire and brake particulate is a real air quality impact that is either worse with EVs (for tire particulate because they are heavier) or mitigated, but still present for EVs (for brake particulate because regenerative braking reduces but does not eliminate the use of physical brake pads). For ICE cars (which are still the dominant form of car when looking at what's on the road today), efficiency might go up in terms of fuel consumed per mile at a steady speed of 90 kph, but urban driving involves a lot of stopping and going, and reducing the speed limit reduces the amount and intensity of acceleration being done, which is where emissions are going to be worst. Also, the existence of 30 kph zones encourages alternatives to driving, whether that is low-no emission modes like walking, biking, or transit, or moving car trips away from the 30 kph zones to other areas (there's a potential negative externality to the latter, but if done well, this can move car airborne emissions away from where a lot of people live and play and towards corridors and areas that are designed with uses that are more tolerant to poor outdoor air quality (e.g.: industrial parks, generally lower density areas, etc.)). That's not to mention road vehicle noise pollution (sometimes considered part of air pollution, but most times not) and safety benefits that come alongside the air quality benefits discussed in this article from having fewer and slower cars

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

in general, efficiency goes up till ~90km/h.

Are you talking about fuel efficiency or total emission though? The efficiency might go up but the emission might still go up, it might be less emission per km/h but maybe not per km.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Slow speeds make public transit a little more attractive to people on a time budget.

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