For everyone who says we don't want ring 0 or kernel level "root kits" I would agree, but then whats the solution when you can easily defeat these anti cheat solutions by going kernel level?
Genuine question, is there a solution?
this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2025
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What's more important? Stopping people cheating at games via technology or digital freedom to prevent all kinds power abuse? (Forced obsolescence, surveillance, anti-features, etc)
I don't care that much about games to be honest. If they get caught cheating, how about just legal action?
There is a 2-part solution:
- Build a game people enjoy playing more than winning.
- If you need an anti-cheat solution, design one on a server side.
I switched to Linux to get AWAY from root kits and corporate malware.
keep your anticheat code off my cpu and on the server where it belongs.
wtf.
why is this so fucking hard for developers to understand?
Nah I can't agree with this. I don't think there are many games with anti-cheats solely on the server. Even Valve has its VAC.
I agree that Kernel anti-cheats are bullshit, I don't want a rootkit on my system. But if you are already running a closed-source game, it's not a stretch to run its local anti-cheat.
And local anti-cheats make sense in and of themselves since you can't easily detect things like visual hacks from the server-side.
You misunderstand a few key things about the points I made, I think. In particular the bit about not being able to trust the client that it is running the code you think it is.
Actually, it's probably management who won't right-size budgets.
Fuck.
Why is it so hard to understand that code on your CPU is far more effective?
Citation needed.
Not sure how or why MY cpu is supposed to do the work a company should do to provide a decent online experience. Especially when the server, where all the clients are coordinated, is the best place to analyze the data stream for anomalies. Not to mention you just cannot ever trust the client to be running the the code it says it is on the hardware it says it is. The server is where anti-cheat has always belonged. (And tbh just sending the right data to the right clients would win half the fucking battle.)
Not to mention you just cannot ever trust the client to be running the the code it says it is on the hardware it says it is.
And this is the problem. I really don't think you're aware of how fucking sophisticated cheats are. Anti-cheat software isn't looking for people with high K:D's or or snappy aimbots. The server can't tell if you can see through the walls. The server has no way to know what's also running on your computer.
Anti-cheat is looking for signs and signatures of those tools cheaters use. And, no, it's not as easy as looking for a process called "TEH-HAX0RS.exe". It's borderline virus levels of sneaky, simulating regular processes. And, just like malware, there is business incentive for these people to be a step ahead of the anti-cheats because stupid kids still keep buying these fucking things. Antivirus and Anticheat are both fighting basically the same people.
I'm not going to disagree that it sucks and some games just make it too fucking easy to begin with by having poor code and structure, but by and large, if it was easy to detect cheaters in the server, it would have been done by now.
If privacy is your number one priority, abso-fucking-lutely don't play the game. Or at least use a dedicated PC or game console. That said, ruining the enjoyment of the game for everyone else by letting cheaters have a field day will be less acceptable to the game buying public.
I do have some understanding of how both local and server-side cheat detection work.
How do you think processing of video output streams downstream from the output port with usb input assistance back into the PC should best be detected client-side, for example?
Real fucking problem, yeah.
But think on this scale:
- Cheats built into game and anyone can turn on
- Cheats downloaded for free
- Cheats cost money and sophisticated
- Cheats require hardware and setup time and probably more money
The number of people that will cheat is less at each tier right? What if we remove the risk of ban at each tier vs a higher risk of ban?
If a dev does fucking nothing at those mid tiers, more people will cheat. If they build a reputation and ban a bunch of people, it encourages more people to give it up. Stubborn ones persist and go down to the next tier but they will be fewer in number. Ideally we make it so the cheat doesn't work at each tier but each one is also harder to prevent.
It's about playing the numbers. 1 in 100 players cheating sucks. 1 in 1000 cheaters isn't great. 1 in a million? That's a lot better risk.
So what happens if devices become popular and common? Great question. I guess everyone that gives a shit quits playing games? Every game is locked down with stream fed into AI, wave our hands and "magically" a server is making the decision for us?
I don't know.
Until we get to that point, I accept the tools that work for now.
Gonna skip most of your response because you fail to understand that barriers to entry in these area continue falling and are unstoppable. You will have to address this.
Thanks for the discussion, but I don't think there is much more that you and I could discuss productively here.
Ha, this was no fucking discussion. You moved the goal posts, I pointed out why that new goal is still not a problem today, and you're now trying to worm your way out by saying you didn't read my response.
Classy. Fucking classy.
I will not waste more time. I am sorry you feel my response isn't adequate. I didn't move any goalposts, I asked how you would deal with an actual problem and you dismissed it. 🤷♂️
My citation is simply experience playing many different online multiplayer games and simple observation skills. If you had the same you'd understand.
Banning all cars from roads is also very effective in preventing automobile accidents, but we're not dumb, are we?
Best anti-cheat is to run games on local. Bring back LANs. Gaming on internet was a mistake xD
I hope LAN café become more popular.
I honestly really like the finals. If they're this based I can't wait to see a single player game from them.
Based
Use AI instead of paying voice actors
That’s a pass from me, dog
I though they were paid voice actors? I'm pretty sure they had credits in the game.
They paid them one time to use their voices for AI generation, which is a sketchy practice notwithstanding the fact it makes the voices sound unnatural and is effectively just an excuse to not pay workers.
Honestly I was fooled. I thought they paid the folks for new lines. But I honestly didn't look into it. Damn scared I'm gonna get some yuck next time I play it.
You might be waiting a while for that. Venture capital funded and so far have made a Battle Royale and an Extraction Shooter. Will probably be a Survival game next if a new trend doesn't come along first.
Battle Royale? Do you think the finals is a battle royale? Do you know what a battle royale even is? Because the finals is pretty obviously not a battle royale bro jfc.
Battle Royale bro? Not in the strictest sense of "is it PUBG", but it has a lot of the genre's elements in there. It's basically a hyper speed Hunger Games with heroes. I'd say it's a fusion of BR and Hero Shooter for sure.
The point is, it is about as far from a single player experience as you are going to get.
You’ve got to be joking me. It’s closer to an arena shooter than a battle royale. You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about.
It’s basically a hyper speed Hunger Games with heroes
Ok first there’s no fucking heroes. There are classes with specializations, but classes are the exact opposite of heroes. I guess Battlefield 3 is a hero shooter now bc they have classes? Second, if you think that this game has anything in common with hunger games you’re not just batshit, but then you also must think that literally every shooter is like hunger games.
The point is, it is about as far from a single player experience as you are going to get.
Oh holy shit stop the fucking presses. An online multiplayer fps is not a single player game? No way. My mind is absolutely blown this whole time I thought my friends in my party were npc’s and I was playing a single player game.
it has a lot of the genre’s elements in there.
There’s really no point in continuing this conversation, but please tell me what battle royale elements does the finals have? I mean specific game elements, not just saying something vague like “it’s like hunger games”.
Take the blinkers off, have a sip of water, calm yourself down a bit.
I love The Finals. You don't need to jump into a thread to defend it from me like it's your first lover. Getting worked up about me labelling it a Hero Shooter and then stating it has zero elements of a Battle Royale is absolutely deranged. Battlefield is literally one of the origins of the hero shooter genre. Classes and gadgets are very customizable but have hero shooter mechanics in that the 3 different body types have distinct abilities and utilities.
It may not be a "circle closes on one lifed competitiors" pure PUBG BR. But it is a dystopian game show where people (albeit avatars) are pitted against each other in a fight to the death (albeit with a monetary points scoring element). Like, you know, Battle Royale.
Oh holy shit stop the fucking presses. An online multiplayer fps is not a single player game? No way.
Oh so you agree they tend to make only multiplayer live service games? Which was my entire point. I guess there was no reason to argue about genre based semantics at all!
No one dies. It’s a virtual tournament. It’s literally paintball in the future. It’s not a battle royale. You’re insane if you think it’s a battle royale. Battle royale is a defined subgenre of fps at this point, and this carries none of the battle royale characteristics. You couldn’t come up with a single facet of this game that resembles a battle royale game, so you fell back to drawing comparisons with a Korean movie that still aren’t accurate.
Cool I’m glad you like the game. I like it too. I’ve been playing since CB1. It’s not a BR and shares nothing in common with BRs.
I’m not “defending it like it’s my lover” (which sounds incel af btw). Im not arguing with you about semantics. I’m clearly stating that you’re totally wrong about genres. So wildly incorrect that I’m convinced you’re trolling. I want to get into more of what you said about hero shooters, but further communication with you is probably going drive me to literal insanity. Good bye.
So wildly incorrect that I’m convinced you’re trolling.
You can think that if it helps you sleep if you like.
I guess BRs must all have some sort of airdrop beginning, a deadly moving circle and permadeath. In which case I guess Apex, Warzone and PUBG itself ceased to be BRs since they introduced respawning. From now on, everything will be labelled "Arena Shooter".
You’re putting words in my mouth I never said. I also said goodbye, because this conversation is going nowhere. You just can’t accept the fact that you could possibly be wrong can you?
You just can’t accept the fact that you could possibly be wrong can you?
True I did double down on my completely facetious initial comment.
The conversation isn't going nowhere because of me though. You're obviously completely ready to discuss elements of game design and completely accepting that you might be wrong.
Haha. “My initial comment was facetious”, the go to weasel phrase for someone that knows they’re wrong.
Go look up the official brand guidelines for the finals then think very hard about what kind of game it is. You don’t have to tell me, but I know you’re going to respond with an attempt at a snarky or “witty” reply anyway because you can’t help yourself.
Did you read my username, or did you ignore that text like all the other text on your screen aside from the corporate messaging? At least you managed to understand my whole bit, if nothing else.
Meet you back here in a few years when Embark reveal their next game.
Cheating has gotten pretty bad on this game, it really hurts the experience. Do I like giving someone this much access to my hardware; no. But i love the shit out of this game and i'll take that risk to keep the small dick cheaters out of my lobbies.