this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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A Boring Dystopia

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Here and Here for sources that back up the claims made in this tweet. Additional source for backing up the number of journalists killed in the Vietnam war

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[–] [email protected] 140 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The WWII number is ridiculous - are they saying that among the millions of civilians that died, there were only 69 journalists?

The Vietnam number isn't right either - it counts only journalists on the American side.

Generally when you see someone claim that anything is worse than WWII, they're not telling the truth. Even the Hamas attack wasn't as bad as a normal day during that war.

[–] [email protected] 96 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Journalists being killed almost certainly refers to journalists actively reporting on the war, embedded in units, the ones with passes. They are actively linked to orgs so when they die they're accounted for as a killed journalist.

I think including every single death of a civilian who happened to be a journalist but wasn't working as one would be too literal an interpretation.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Even then, the number of official German, Japanese, and North Vietnamese journalists that died is not included and presumably not small. The WWII and Vietnam casualty counts are for the journalists of the stronger power fighting a war on its enemy's territory so I suppose it could be meaningful to compare them to the number of Israeli journalists killed, but they're not really relevant in the context of Palestinian journalists.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Yeah I think this is comparing recorded intentional journalist assassinations in WW2 and the Vietnam war vs total journalists killed in the Gaza war. It's pretty well corroborated that some of the journalist deaths are assassinations but we don't know the concrete numbers obviously.

[–] [email protected] 120 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Uh no Israel are the good guys. They told me so.

[–] [email protected] 89 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes. And those journalists were probably out to make Israel look bad by using facts.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago

They didn't condonm ham ass.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think this comment was meant as a joke.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

I think they both were

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you kill everybody who says you're doing bad things, are you really doing bad things anymore?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_of_Israel

Influencing foreign news, one could see silencing journalists as a form of public relations management

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Considering how many of my family members died in the Holocaust, this heavily sarcastic statement might be in really poor taste:

Influencing foreign news, one could see silencing journalists as a form of public relations management

Nuh uh! Israel would never do that cuz that's what Hitler did. Hitler's the one who declared war on the media! Being victims of attempted genocide ourselves, the Jews could never perpetrate such hard-learned lessons on anyone else, right?! Right...?

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I honestly don't know how to interpret your comment. I'm sorry you lost people to the Holocaust.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Christian ethics and the notion of suffering as a purifying and cleansing event. Science tells us tho, that people who are hurt are more likely to hurt others. There's no reason for it to be different with societies and communities.

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[–] [email protected] 94 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Israel bombed a press squad last week with all the right equipment and a clearly marked press sign on vehicle near the Lebanese border. There were no other people near them.

The IDF terrorists could easily see from their drone that they were journalists. Yet they still bombed them. These are israeli terror attacks hoping to deter journalist from covering their war crimes.

https://youtu.be/RIymozNfp4U?si=XPaurLdJgkO1VhC_

Also this one nearly missing a squad of journalists is very a clearly Targeted IDF terror attack.

https://youtu.be/tjtoslFkPm8?si=V_5LG-GcmJ3cTKz3

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 1 year ago

During WWII American combat medics stopped wearing red crosses because Japanese soldiers would prioritize killing medics, which was a war crime. Seems like journalists might unfortunately need to stop marking themselves as journalists.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Just asking, is this mostly due to more journalists, or due to more people calling themselves journalists? Or both

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It could be a factor, no doubt. But considering a couple of anecdotes. One where the IDF opened fire unto a jeep clearly identified as press on the border with Lebanon. And the fact that they've also killed hundreds of UN staffers on Gaza during this past month alone. I'm inclined to think that Israel is being at best reckless, at worst intentionally malicious with who they're targeting. Either way they don't care about who they kill in their murderous warpath.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They literally called or message a press person while live on tv reporting, telling them evacuate your home we are going to bomb it. It is definitely malicious.

Now why the number is high? Well no one in mainstream media care about telling the Truth so more people are doing that to help take footage, because without a picture and a video people don't care to believe written words.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

This video disagrees with you. Israel intentionally targets and bombs journalists. This is a fact.

https://youtu.be/RIymozNfp4U?si=Ja-5qjPhLfUvcvwh

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Why did you omit the possibility that they were being targeted on purpose to keep news from leaking?

That’s sort of a deceptive way to talk

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Both, but lots of know nothing running around a battlefield calling themselves reporters is a bigger issue these days

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can’t find any source for the numbers from Vietnam and WW2 in the linked sources.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The sources for Vietnam and WW2 are in the second link. It should be noted that nowadays there's much more journalists than ever before. Unlike WW2 and Vietnam journalists were able to avoid areas of potential conflict more easily rather than in Gaza where Israels approach of bombing the shit out of the small strip of land has meant there virtually no place where a journalist reporting on their actions can safely do so.

Also I added a third source to the post which corroborates the Vietnam estimate.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

I highly, highly doubt the numbers for WW2 are even remotely accurate. There is no source in the article.

Quickly searching online reveals at least 48 dead mostly American and/or English journalists, although quite a few deaths cannot be considered war crimes even today - being aboard a bomber makes you a valid target I believe.

Besides, where's the number of killed axis journalists? Surely in Hiroshima there were a few dozen journalists, don't you think?

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As upsetting as that number is, this is an absolutely meaningless comparison and is pretty misleading to compare them. That number should stand on its own.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Not really because it shows just how reckless towards human life the IDF have been

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The number killed by itself does that is what I’m saying. Using WWII data has no purpose because this is an entirely different conflict and also is in the modern era.

I mean consider how many more people now are journalists. Or how the conflict heavily involves civilian populations directly (WWII did some). Or how our data collection has changed.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

World War 2 was the modern era lol. I think you meant "pre-information age"?

And Vietnam had widespread and extensive news coverage throughout the conflict from multiple sides.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not sure why this is so hard. Call the war of WWII part of the modern era of warfare if you’d like. I’m not defending Israel here to be clear, I just think this stat is not useful.

Vietnam had plenty of coverage, but I listed all the other conflicting points that harm the data comparison. That specific war has always had problems being compared to other wars, let alone a one sided genocide.

If people can’t see the difference in these data sets and why they aren’t easily comparable, that’s fine.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I know, this isn't a fun question, but it's honest curiosity..

Do you think a contributing factor in the number difference is the amount of modern "journalist"? Like bloggers being considered journalists?

But in the end, it's all fucked up and every death is a tragedy, no matter the profession or side.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

I googled the names of a few of these guys and they got pictures with the blue "bulletproof" press outfit on and are real journalists.

Sadly these people don't seem to be random bloggers.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This claim is almost as stupid as thwt israeli delegation that wore David stars to say that Jews were treated just as bad now as they were during WWII. Not entirely as stupid, but close enough.

WWII killed 69 journalists? Really? right there

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Show me proof they were targeted. Hanging out in a battlefield while bombs are falling, doesn't mean you were the target

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Conclusion is, there are a lot more journalists around war situations now, willing to take a lot of risk, than there were in older days.

Joke asside though, it's too many deaths, not only on journalists but in all

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This artificial Zionist State that proclaims itself "Israel" has nothing to do with the biblical Israel that the great Christian mass believes in. Get real

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

IDK. They have a conservative government. This is the type of "shoot first, don't ask questions" mentality they use. This is what it would look like if Bush (either one) or Regan were running the show. Get the conservative warmongers out of power and they're just like everyone else.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Not to diminish their journalistic qualities, but some of them are clearly on the level of "Russia Today" but in arab edition

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

That's literally diminishing their journalism.....

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You are doing that though, and by saying that here in a way your are diminishing the value of their lives as well.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So this idiotic claim implies that among millions of Jews and millions of Chinese slaughtered there were exactly 69 journalists. Bullshit.

Also if those same "journalists" behave like this medic did where he left injured person lying on the ground and instead took his gun so other person can keep shooting, am not surprised one bit.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Those that target journalists are declaring war on the truth itself

Very poetic and all, but utterly devoid of pragmatism. The western world has lost its thread and failed to understand the importance of its moral positioning.

Wikileaks

Snowden

Jamal Ahmad Khashoggi

The west and western journalism have learned and presented as fact all the wrong lessons from this time in history. We need stronger protections for journalism and free speech and assuming the value of morality to be enough to protect them clearly has not been working.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So you're mad because you agree with them? I don't understand your criticism.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

They're mad because no one is mad in the way they're mad. It's a persistent and dangerous position, where if people aren't agreeing with them wholeheartedly and in exactly the same way, they're clearly arguing against the person.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Well, they were probably all antisemites so it's NBD.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Those who target journalists...

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